And the Klebbie goes to...Worst execution of a good idea page 147

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  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 1,980
    OHMSS. The scene further showed that Lazenby would have gotten better and better as James Bond, if he continued.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,006
    CR shower scene. The rest is nothing special.
  • Posts: 1,916
    A lot of love here for the OHMSS finale scene. But I was surprised not to see the post car chase scene in the barn where Bond proposes to Tracy. Her asking "Do you mean it" was heartbreaking, more so than the ending scene because you know it's coming. Here it has a sense of hope and a vulnerable Bond.

    The FYEO coral thing isn't a big stretch for Bond. The TWINE scene is evidence of why it's one of my least favorite films of the series. From the absolutely stupid gadget that sets it up, it just doesn't work.

    The choices from here get tougher as the OHMSS scene is an all-timer that never fails to bring up emotion. The TB scene proves the film has more depth, excuse the term, than people who just slag it for its underwater excesses. Domino is one of the women he's especially protective of and it's a nice display of Connery's acting.

    I select the CR shower scene for how pivotal is to the story. The new 00 gets a sense of the danger he not only puts himself in but her, seeing the really tough side of the life he's chosen. And it clinches his feelings for her.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,302
    BT3366 wrote: »
    A lot of love here for the OHMSS finale scene. But I was surprised not to see the post car chase scene in the barn where Bond proposes to Tracy. Her asking "Do you mean it" was heartbreaking, more so than the ending scene because you know it's coming. Here it has a sense of hope and a vulnerable Bond.

    That's a good observation, yeah. It is a little heartbreaking, because she knows that up until then she has been in love with Bond but he hasn't been in love with her. He's effectively just been using her because he wanted the information her dad promised about Blofeld, and she knew that.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited July 1 Posts: 3,787
    mtm wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    A lot of love here for the OHMSS finale scene. But I was surprised not to see the post car chase scene in the barn where Bond proposes to Tracy. Her asking "Do you mean it" was heartbreaking, more so than the ending scene because you know it's coming. Here it has a sense of hope and a vulnerable Bond.

    That's a good observation, yeah. It is a little heartbreaking, because she knows that up until then she has been in love with Bond but he hasn't been in love with her. He's effectively just been using her because he wanted the information her dad promised about Blofeld, and she knew that.

    Is this the whole main concept of why Fleming crafted that love story that way? Because Fleming, like Bond, never appreciated the women who had loved him (Muriel Wright for example), Muriel loved him, but Fleming didn't loved her and only made her a hopeless romantic, of course, Fleming realized all of that, when she died in an air raid (and even to her death, she still cared for Fleming as she had bought him his favorite cigarettes at the time that she's killed), just like how Tracy died in the wedding scene, and the film represented it better and really well.

    I don't know if it came from Fleming himself, but "you would never realize the importance of a person until they're gone".

    And that makes me love this film more, because it shows and represents Fleming's own inner demons being poured into the story.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,208
    I'll vote for OHMSS, for all the reasons mentioned by those who voted for it. The CR scene is very good/ tender as well, but in OHMSS it has greater impact.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,388
    Time for the unflappable Dove to flap to the stage and deliver the Bondie to our deserving nominee!

    The Bondie for best tender moment in a Bond film goes to Bond comforts Vesper in the shower from CR. Accepting the award is a water logged Daniel Craig.

    Voting shows us the following OHMSS Bond and the traffic cop received 7 votes, Bond gives bad news to Domino TB receiving one vote!

    Lets give some kick of shins to a worthy candidate. Or is it an un-worthy candidate?

    Sir Roger is known as a gentleman and yet his Bond has it's share of ungentlemanly moments within the series. So which scene or sequence listed here is his least gentlemanly point within the series!
    • Bond throws boy overboard TMWTGG Bond is drifting when a local lad climbs aboard and attempts to sell Bond a carving. Bond is impassive until the boy shows him how to get the gas flowing. Instead of thanking the boy, he throws him off the boat and speeds away.
    • Bond tricks Solitaire LALD Bond knows that Solitaire can assist him with an inside look into Kananga's network. He breaks into her house and then stacks the deck. Solitaire believing the choice of card to be true, ends up going to bed with Bond and consequently also giving up her virginity and her skills. It seems poor form that Bond stacks the deck.
    • Bond uses a human shield TSWLM Bond has just met Fakesh's secretary and is indulging in some kisses. When suddenly the lady sees Sandor with the gun. She screams and Bond uses her as a shield? Or did the secretary throw her life away for a stranger she had just met? Either way Bond throws her body on the couch and chases after Sandor.
    • Bond stuffs Goodnight TMWTGG is Golden Gun the least gentlemanly Moore's Bond ever was? Here is a second nominee from this film. Bond stuffs Goodnight into the dresser and proceeds to make love to Andrea Anders. The poor girl and the rather caddish thing Bond does is rather jarring.
    • Bond zooms in OP Bond shows immaturity on rare occasions and this one from OP hasn't aged well. Bond is in Q's India lab and decides he'd like to zoom in on a pair of breasts. This is a rather juvenile moment that seems out of character to the character.

    There you have it, which moment needs a kick in the shins? Feel free to write in your vote if it isn't list here.


  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited July 3 Posts: 3,787
    I may nominate Bond's "women drivers" comment while in the van with Anya in TSWLM, knowing that they're in the state of urgency and danger from Jaws, that comment and that particular act from him, for me, felt inappropriate, and a bit unrealistic, I guess, he could be calm and a bit serious, but not to act smug or arrogant in such a situation, just because it's Anya who's on the steering wheel and he had let his jealousy and sexist attitude to take over.

    I think it's a lot more worse than the Felicca/Sandor situation, because I think the move was done in Felicca's part, she saw Sandor first and it's maybe her intention to shield herself, but Bond didn't intentionally done it, and Sandor may just happened to shot Felicca, at least from my own observation from watching the film, sure, he had thrown Felicca's body on the couch because he's in the urgent time to chase Sandor before he could get any far, reasonable, I don't see anything wrong with it, I've even felt that Felicca also seduced Bond when she had first showed up.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,201
    These are all excellent choices - only Roger could possibly have sold any of this stuff (which is awful on paper) as anything approaching amusing shithousery.

    I'm surprised threatening to break Miss Anders' arm isn't here but then again, that most likely would have run away with it (TMWTGG certainly is his least gentlemanly film).

    I think the Solitaire moment in LALD is probably the worst here as it was planned out in advance by Bond and is a really cruel ploy to take advantage of her beliefs and then her body, whereas all of the other nominees are spur of the moment.
  • This is a tough one.

    Bond throwing the boy overboard into dirty water is bad for not paying him, but the boy was swimming in the water before, and keeping him in the boat could put him in harm's way.
    Stacking the deck is incredibly poor form and probably would get Bond arrested in a modern-day setting. Don't even see what he gains from it other than pleasure.
    The lack of clarity in TSWLM eliminates it from discussion I think.
    TMWTGG probably runs LALD the closest. Not only is shoving Goodnight into the dresser classless, but also there's the feeling that Andrea doesn't even want to sleep with him and she just does it to win him over.
    OP is childish but whatever, it's a poor taste joke.

    I think LALD takes it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,302
    The Solitaire moment is certainly up there as being pre-planned unpleasantness and fully taking advantage of her, but I think I'll go with Goodnight in the wardrobe as it's just so grotty to make her listen to him and Andrea at it. Roger's first two are films you really need to not think about too much when you're watching them!
  • SimonSimon Keeping The British End Up...
    Posts: 154
    I know the result didnt affect Jaws in the slightest, and Jaws was wrapping a metal bar around his head, but a gentleman surely doesnt knee a man in his jewels. His wedding tackle. The plums. His love spuds.

    But yeah, Solitaire is probably akin to coerced rape these days, so gets the vote easily for me.
  • Posts: 4,078
    Shouldn’t the title be ‘least gentlemanly moment’? Or ‘most ungentlemanly moment?’

    Anyway, for me it’s the Solitare moment in LALD. Very weird scene.
  • Posts: 1,916
    Solitaire LALD gets my vote. It's been years since I've read the novel, so I can't recall how it played out there, but the method Bond uses, especially knowing what danger it places her in, is huge. Yet she also plays into it.

    The TSWLM human shield one is pretty bad too, although I can still never figure out if she was screaming out of fright for her own life or for Bond or what. The OP zoom thing is just Bond being goofy and immature. It's Bond's reaction after the Anders tryst that really makes that one bad. The kid in the boat thing I see as maybe him just keeping the kid out of harm's way, since how would he have any money wearing a karate gi?

    Not directly ungentlemanly but still pretty bad was the aftermath of his using Corinne Dufour in MR to get to Drax's safe, costing her life and making Drax an even worse villain. In the film it's never clarified if Bond found out about her death, not sure if Wood's novel referred to it.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited July 3 Posts: 3,787
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Solitaire LALD gets my vote. It's been years since I've read the novel, so I can't recall how it played out there, but the method Bond uses, especially knowing what danger it places her in, is huge. Yet she also plays into it.

    I'm going to burst the bubble and say that it's not in the book, if anything, it's Solitaire who seduced Bond in the book (in the train scene), actually Bond and Solitaire never had any romantic interactions or let alone flirting for the good chunk of the book (he'd even used his broken finger as a reason not to make love), and that train scene that I'm referring to almost happened in the book's middle act, well, it's always the girls who were seducing Bond in the books, and not the other way around like what usually happened in the films, Bond in the books acted like a naive, innocent guy who was always prone to seduction.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,270
    TMWTGG stuffed into closet. Although I'd have gone for almost breaking Andrea's arm.

    TMWTGG is Bond at his least gentlemanly. And possibly FYEO is the most.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,787
    echo wrote: »
    TMWTGG stuffed into closet. Although I'd have gone for almost breaking Andrea's arm.

    TMWTGG is Bond at his least gentlemanly. And possibly FYEO is the most.

    Octopussy for me is his most gentlemanly.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,388
    As I flap to the stage to give out the kick of the shins I want to thank @007HallY for the grammatical suggestion. Thanks mate!

    Time to give a kick in the shins to the most ungentlemanly moment in a Roger Moore Bond film. The winner is Bond stacks the deck against Solitaire this received 5 votes. Goodnight in the wardrobe received 2 votes and we had a write in vote for Bond's "women drivers" comment in Spy.

    Lets stay on the Klebbie side of things. Lets call this right idea, wrong execution. These may have pushed the envelope, played with a trope or simply been a creative idea that didn't quite come off on screen as it was intended. In some cases the thread of the idea is never really explored or its conclusion is not handled very well.

    Here are the nominees for right idea, wrong execution.
    • A female Antagonist TWINE Bond coming up and dealing with a female main villain had yet to be explored. TWINE decided to cover this ground and while the idea was worthy and certainly played with the villain role. It was left lacking. When bond puts a bullet into Electra we should feel his conflict. Yet we don't and that says a lot about the execution of this wonderful idea.
    • Bond's Equal MR In the previous film the Russian agent was suspicious and in some ways an equal of Bond. In MR the script called for more of the same, yet never really explained why? Why was Goodhead so antagonistic to Bond? This antagonism suddenly no longer becomes an issue and by the end of the film Bond and Goodhead are a great team. In Spy it was warranted with a full back story, in MR it is merely there.
    • Turning Japanese YOLT in the book it made a lot of sense for Bond to go deep undercover in the fishing village. In the movie, not so much. This was a puzzling choice for the script to have Bond turn Japanese for the final act. By the time Bond is climbing into the volcano the Japanese look is gone and Bond is in a ninja suit by himself. While the idea of going deep undercover is an interesting one, ham fisting into this adventure seems un-necessary
    • An old agent SF We are supposed to believe that Bond gets old, loses his skill and nerve after getting shot off the bridge. A great idea and one we haven't seen before too bad the thread is left out. After it is mentioned when Bond meets Silva on the island the idea is never returned to or explored. Bond gets his mojo back with no explanation, and we are left to wonder, why did he fail all those tests?
    • Bond is killed NTTD why not throw this in! Bond had never died in any of the previous adventures. There had been fake outs galore through the series. Finally in NTTD it was going to get executed. Too bad it was poorly executed. From the script needing these contrivances with the nano bots, to the urgency being upped with no explanation. The character who lived to fight another day for over 50 years was suddenly surrendering and staying to die. A ending that polarized the audience.

    There you have it, the nominees for worst execution of a good idea. Feel free to write in your nominees as there are likely more that I hadn't mentioned. Which of these is getting a kick in the shins. Bonus points if you can share how you might have improved the execution we got on screen.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I’d say his Japanese transformation is my least favourite.
  • Posts: 2,263
    Ditto @peter. The Japanese disguise is the sole reason I’m thankful 007 rarely dons disguises in his films.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Ditto @peter. The Japanese disguise is the sole reason I’m thankful 007 rarely dons disguises in his films.

    😂, and this one was quite the doozy!
  • Posts: 1,306
    The death of Bond. Too complicated. The scriptwriters didn't know how to kill him and they just used everything they could think of.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,302
    For right idea, poor execution I can't help but come back to the thing I'm always going on about: Scaramanga being the world's greatest assassin. That's a cool hook for a Bond villain and nemesis to 007, but... he barely does any assassinating! And his evil scheme doesn't involve any assassinations either- it's kind of bizarre. They set him up as this anti-Bond, complete with gadgets and everything, and give him a sort of superpower where he's a preternatural marksman - all great ideas, but they go nowhere.

    Another good idea which occurs to me as it came up in conversation recently, is that they nodded towards the Fleming short story in Octopussy by having Octopussy's dad be Smythe, but they removed the element that he'd killed Oberhauser, therefore removing the personal involvement for Bond. I get that would have complicated the story they were telling, but it does seem a bit odd to have an emotional connection for your main character in the story and to actually remove that.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited July 8 Posts: 3,147
    I'm in the 'Bond should not die' camp, but I can't choose that as this is 'right idea, wrong execution' and I don't think I could ever accept Bond dying as a 'right idea' no matter how they'd done it. I long ago reached an accommodation with it, I do like NTTD and it does actually work in the context of the story that they told, but still...it's Bond's death and that's not something I ever wanted.

    I'm ok with the crocked/recovery aspect of SF. Tbf, much of the reason that Bond's underpar in the first half of SF isn't due to age, it's because he's got depleted uranium bullet frags leaking toxins into him. The reason he gets back on form is because the frags have been removed and he gradually gets better as the mighty crushing fist of his raging testosterone levels overpowers the damage done by the depleted uranium. Summat like that, anyway. I know age plays into the wider themes, so that is part of it, but surely the frags were the main culprit? Bond doesn't get back to form because he's regained any youth during the course of the film, after all. So yeah, I'm ok with that one.

    So I'll go with Turning Bond Japanese in YOLT. That can be an uncomfortable watch these days!

    I'd've had no hesitation in going with mtm's suggestion of the treatment of Scaramanga if it'd been one of the options. So much potential in Bond -v-the most-feared assassin in the world (so much so, that Robert Ludlam lifted Fleming's premise wholesale for the novel version of The Bourne Identity!), but much of it's unfortunately unrealised in the finished film.
  • This is again a hard cast:
    1. Female antagonist is great idea, but I think she is also executed quite well for the most part. There is a bit left wanting sure, but I still enjoy Marceau's performance, and her character.
    2. Bond rattling on about trusting each other is out of place, especially since he's worked with Felix Leiter and the CIA quite often, and Holly is just another from that outfit. I do get her being antagonistic to him though: his "a woman" puts her on the defensive (now why Bond would underestimate women after the whole Anya debacle, I have no idea).
    3. Bond turning Japanese is poorly executed, and doesn't even stand up to the end of the film, but all of the complaints can be levelled at the idea in the novel as well. How do you make a 6 foot+ Scotsman look Japanese? It's just in the novel Fleming balances mixing real and fake. This disbelief is easily suspended when Fleming has you in his clutches and moves you through the story.
    4. An old agent is a good idea, but in the context of what we came off of in QOS I don't know if that's the idea the series needed. The film does alright with this, but yeah I can see it just losing relevance near the end.
    5. I believe Bond killing himself like he was going to in Moonraker would be superb, but as done in the film, there are little stakes and too many questions. There's also a cheapness in having the series continue after the death to be honest, although I'm glad the films didn't end on such a low.

    So final vote is Bond killed in NTTD
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited July 7 Posts: 3,787
    I can think of many wasted good ideas in this series: Scaramanga was mentioned already, the whole Bond got tortured in North Korea and wanting revenge in Die Another Day, but given that people didn't accepted the route Licence To Kill had offered before, I understand the changing of tone, but still, it shouldn't be as abysmal as how it actually went that it's almost like a fever dream in the second act, the same for Bond wanting a revenge for Vesper in Quantum of Solace, instead, we're saddled with Dominic Greene, Elvis and their plot, leaving nothing for the exploration of Bond's grit regarding Vesper that only got rushed in the end (that led to it being brought back in SPECTRE and No Time To Die, to an extent), the same for For Your Eyes Only regarding the 'villain hiding in sheep's clothing' plot twist in Kristatos (when too many red flags and clues have been showed to us, hence, removing the tense of the reveal), the same for Melina's revenge for her parents, not fully fleshed out, as she's mostly in the background with Bond warning her about 'digging two graves' to which comes off as unreasonable and unjustifiable.

    As for the other choices here:
    1. The Female Antagonist in TWINE, is not for me, a wasted opportunity, for me, it's well paid off due to Sophie Marceau's performance, if anything, the wasted opportunity there lies on the plot itself regarding Elektra's oil and especially, Renard, I liked the concept behind Renard (A man who felt no pain, had a romantic relationship with the villainess, anarchist) but I think it's not fleshed out, it didn't land as how it should have been, I don't know, it's a bit lacking, I find Renard an interesting concept, but a failed execution.
    2. Regarding Holly Goodhead in MR, I think it's a bit reasonable, as she's competitive and independent, she works on her own and doesn't give in to Bond's charms (not at least until the end), she maybe CIA, but she's a dedicated woman to her job, not all CIA agents were the same, after all, Bond never trusted Jinx either, and even suspecting her of working for Gustav Graves in Die Another Day (what kind of reasoning was that?) I mean, just look at the scene after he had saved her from the lasers and Mr. Kil, it's almost a nonsense suspicion from Bond when he and Jinx have worked together for the long durations of the film. Felix Leiter and Bond knew each other for a very long time, so it's natural that they're close, but with Holly, she doesn't know Bond that much for her to trust, regarding Bond's attitude, given that he had saved Anya's bacon by the end and have her fell in love with him, it's not impossible for Bond to level up his ego and acted that way towards Goodhead, he would expect Goodhead to fall in love with him, and he had failed on that aspect, which was surprising to him.
    3. Bond in a Japanese disguise is not a wasted opportunity, more like unnecessary aspect, they've managed to stray far away from the book and yet kept that whole scene? It's a scene I could do without, it's just not needed, it's not a wasted opportunity, it's just downright bad for me 😅 and doesn't makes sense, I know it's in the book, but they've changed the film far away from the book, and they've changed so many things before upon adaptations (Goldfinger, for example), and it turned out for the better, but retaining this scene, I still don't get why they've retained that scene when there are so many better scenes from the book that are more deserving of being seen on screen?
    4. Bond as an old agent in Skyfall is something that I don't understand, but again, I've made my own explanation to this that him failing the tests were a result of his body not recovering well from the shot, but again, the irrelevance thing is unnecessary, since we don't see Craig's Bond in so many missions after Quantum of Solace to make him a seasoned agent already, it's like there's a large gap that we've missed, unless, we include the video games which was set between 2008 and 2012, we don't need the film to complain about Bond's irrelevance, when he clearly isn't (again, going from a rookie in Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace, to being a seasoned, old agent in Skyfall? Doesn't makes sense, too quick to happen), I think the 'old agent' thing could be done had there been more films between Quantum of Solace and Skyfall, and thus, showing Bond's evolution from being a rookie to an experienced agent.

    And that leaves us with the last option and which I may give my vote to Bond got killed in NTTD, it's like an emotional manipulation for the audiences, I have explained here in this forum many times my reasoning for not liking it, I have no problem with Bond dying (especially with Craig's Bond), but it comes off as unearned, and way too much, and I've already known that he would die too in the end, so no surprise too, either (too many signposting, I suppose).
    Like what I'm always saying, it's like they've written this film backwards, starting with their idea of Bond's death and wrote the script and plot to support that idea backwards, resulting in lack of cohesiveness and shallow justifying of the said idea, as all the plot points that could lead to his death were all just patched up to make sure it will have the same outcome as they've desired, it didn't felt natural, more like intentional that have been spoonfed to us for acceptance that "he's going to die, and they're doing it", so in return, I don't feel nothing, but emptiness and bloated.
    It doesn't helped that we're saddled with many callbacks and lacks of originality, that led to the death scene being comes off as cheap too, how may I feel for Bond's death if it reminds me of an older film because of the callbacks, it's just unacceptable.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 1,980
    Bond killed In NTTD. It was the first time this happened. It needed to be worth it. It needed to be done properly and even with subtle ambiguity. Plus, no Bond theme for his very final moment. Almost disrespectful that.
  • Posts: 5,983
    Turning Japanese YOLT : Even if "yellowface" lasted longer than "blackface", this was still a bad idea, and the execution certainly isn't up to par. It makes Sean Connery looks stupid, and one can't believe it for a second.
  • Posts: 7,401
    Turing Japanese in YOLT! The whole section drags the movie down a lot!
  • edited July 7 Posts: 4,078
    mtm wrote: »
    For right idea, poor execution I can't help but come back to the thing I'm always going on about: Scaramanga being the world's greatest assassin. That's a cool hook for a Bond villain and nemesis to 007, but... he barely does any assassinating! And his evil scheme doesn't involve any assassinations either- it's kind of bizarre. They set him up as this anti-Bond, complete with gadgets and everything, and give him a sort of superpower where he's a preternatural marksman - all great ideas, but they go nowhere.

    Agreed, I’ll go with that as a write in. Such a great idea but the way the film deals with it is a bit of a missed opportunity.
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