007: What would you have done differently?

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  • Posts: 14,839
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Where can I get that TB jigsaw puzzle?

    One thing I'd change is that until the climax it seems that the Janus Syndicate is made of four people, Trevelyan included. I know it's a secret organization but still. There should have been a scene, say in the train, where you see a few more henchmen.

    You can't polish a turd.

    Whatever you think of GE it did have far more success than Dalton's Bond movies and made the franchise popular again.

    That doesn't make it a better movie!
    Far from it imho!

    I never said it did. I say doing something different may have made it less popular.

    @Getafix The franchise was on a downward slope. Even Dalton said that LTK might be the last Bond during filming.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    These recent comments on GE have got me thinking. I remember the keen anticipation for the film in 1995. There was a pent up demand for Bond, and the brilliant teaser had people stoked, most of all myself.

    Was Brosnan an inherent part of that anticipation, as a new Bond? Most definitely imho. As the man in waiting for so many years, I know many (including my parents) wanted to see how he would fare. Moreover, the Dalton years, while lauded by some, just didn't appear to resonate in the same way as prior actor intros. He was arguably a man ahead of his time but sadly that doesn't pay the bills.

    Having said that, I now wonder whether what everyone was really anticipating was a return to the past. A nostalgic hope for the halycon days of the 60's/70's. If that was what the public wanted, then GE definitely delivered for the majority, even if not for some.

    I think the interesting point to note is that it marked the high water mark critically for the Brosnan era. Perhaps once that pent up nostalgic desire was fulfilled with a greatest hits film (which GE for all intents and purposes was) there was no more interest for it..
  • Posts: 11,425
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    GE is one of a handful of Bond films (the others being GF, TSWLM and SF) that were huge hits but which also have a very outspoken group of critics who like to emphasize how overrated they are.

    it's sacrilege to even mention GE in the same breath as GF and TSWLM.

    you can lump it with SF if you want but even I would acknowledge that SF is an infinitely superior film on pretty much every front- and I can't stand SF.
  • edited June 2018 Posts: 3,333
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Where can I get that TB jigsaw puzzle?

    One thing I'd change is that until the climax it seems that the Janus Syndicate is made of four people, Trevelyan included. I know it's a secret organization but still. There should have been a scene, say in the train, where you see a few more henchmen.

    You can't polish a turd.

    Whatever you think of GE it did have far more success than Dalton's Bond movies and made the franchise popular again.

    That doesn't make it a better movie!
    Far from it imho!

    I never said it did. I say doing something different may have made it less popular.

    @Getafix The franchise was on a downward slope. Even Dalton said that LTK might be the last Bond during filming.
    Just out of curiosity @Ludovico, do you know where this quote originates from and under which context it was said? I assume that it might have been said under the premise that Cubby was forced to shoot abroad, chiefly in the Churubuscu Studios in Mexico City as a cost-cutting exercise and had no clue whatsoever where the next 007 movie would be shot. Of course, this wasn't the first time that Bond had been forced abroad as MR also had to shoot at the studios d'Épinay (otherwise known as Éclair Studios in Paris) to save money, probably due to UA's wasting so much money on Heaven's Gate. I'm not sure whether you're implying that Dalton is saying that the future of 007 was uncertain because of his own casting rather than it being problems with financing and studio decisions?
  • Posts: 14,839
    bondsum wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Where can I get that TB jigsaw puzzle?

    One thing I'd change is that until the climax it seems that the Janus Syndicate is made of four people, Trevelyan included. I know it's a secret organization but still. There should have been a scene, say in the train, where you see a few more henchmen.

    You can't polish a turd.

    Whatever you think of GE it did have far more success than Dalton's Bond movies and made the franchise popular again.

    That doesn't make it a better movie!
    Far from it imho!

    I never said it did. I say doing something different may have made it less popular.

    @Getafix The franchise was on a downward slope. Even Dalton said that LTK might be the last Bond during filming.
    Just out of curiosity @Ludovico, do you know where this quote originates from and under which context it was said? I assume that it might have been said under the premise that Cubby was forced to shoot abroad, chiefly in the Churubuscu Studios in Mexico City as a cost-cutting exercise and had no clue whatsoever where the next 007 movie would be shot. Of course, this wasn't the first time that Bond had been forced abroad as MR also had to shoot at the studios d'Épinay (otherwise known as Éclair Studios in Paris) to save money, probably due to UA's wasting so much money on Heaven's Gate. I'm not sure whether you're implying that Dalton is saying that the future of 007 was uncertain because of his own casting rather than it being problems with financing and studio decisions?

    I've read it somewhere in an article that must still be available. Dalton said that LTK may be the last Bond. Not his last Bond but the last Bond, he stressed that in these words. I might be wrong but I think it was both his evaluation of a production he found difficult and a veiled criticism to the critics of his casting. I think at some point he was exasperated.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Where can I get that TB jigsaw puzzle?

    One thing I'd change is that until the climax it seems that the Janus Syndicate is made of four people, Trevelyan included. I know it's a secret organization but still. There should have been a scene, say in the train, where you see a few more henchmen.

    You can't polish a turd.

    Whatever you think of GE it did have far more success than Dalton's Bond movies and made the franchise popular again.

    That doesn't make it a better movie!
    Far from it imho!

    I never said it did. I say doing something different may have made it less popular.

    @Getafix The franchise was on a downward slope. Even Dalton said that LTK might be the last Bond during filming.
    Just out of curiosity @Ludovico, do you know where this quote originates from and under which context it was said? I assume that it might have been said under the premise that Cubby was forced to shoot abroad, chiefly in the Churubuscu Studios in Mexico City as a cost-cutting exercise and had no clue whatsoever where the next 007 movie would be shot. Of course, this wasn't the first time that Bond had been forced abroad as MR also had to shoot at the studios d'Épinay (otherwise known as Éclair Studios in Paris) to save money, probably due to UA's wasting so much money on Heaven's Gate. I'm not sure whether you're implying that Dalton is saying that the future of 007 was uncertain because of his own casting rather than it being problems with financing and studio decisions?

    I've read it somewhere in an article that must still be available. Dalton said that LTK may be the last Bond. Not his last Bond but the last Bond, he stressed that in these words. I might be wrong but I think it was both his evaluation of a production he found difficult and a veiled criticism to the critics of his casting. I think at some point he was exasperated.
    I distinctly remember reading that comment somewhere as well, and he was indeed referring to Bond itself, rather than his time as Bond. I am not aware of in what context he was speaking though.
  • Posts: 11,425
    it's in a filmed interview from the set. available on YouTube somewhere.

    he's filming the PTS.

    He seems a bit morose and depressed. i wonder if the press picked up on it at the time.
  • Posts: 3,333
    OK, Thanks @Getafix (and @Ludovico for your replies). So it was when they were shooting in the Florida Keys then? From what I've read, nobody was happy on this shoot, including the Florida scenes which were stifling hot and uncomfortable conditions for everyone. Strange that Cubby would allow such a filmed segment to escape his notice and not be in someway censored. I'm assuming it was the studio's own PR department that were doing these on-set interviews? Also, without seeing it, it's difficult for me to understand its context.

    I have managed to dig up the old Variety story from 12 April 1994 which included the original press release of Dalton stepping down. It does state that "UA execs were mum on possible replacements, but speculation surfaced on two questionable possibilities: Liam Neeson and Pierce Brosnan." Adding further that "When the pic was announced last year, former MGM co-chairman Alan Ladd Jr. said it would carry a budget of at least $40 million. Sources said that figure may rise if an A-list star takes over the series."

    https://variety.com/1994/film/news/dalton-bails-out-as-bond-120067/
  • Posts: 11,189
    Getafix wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    GE is one of a handful of Bond films (the others being GF, TSWLM and SF) that were huge hits but which also have a very outspoken group of critics who like to emphasize how overrated they are.

    it's sacrilege to even mention GE in the same breath as GF and TSWLM.

    you can lump it with SF if you want but even I would acknowledge that SF is an infinitely superior film on pretty much every front- and I can't stand SF.

    You’d be surprised at how vocal some people can be about both GF and TSWLM.
  • Posts: 15,818
    bondsum wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Where can I get that TB jigsaw puzzle?

    One thing I'd change is that until the climax it seems that the Janus Syndicate is made of four people, Trevelyan included. I know it's a secret organization but still. There should have been a scene, say in the train, where you see a few more henchmen.

    You can't polish a turd.

    Whatever you think of GE it did have far more success than Dalton's Bond movies and made the franchise popular again.

    That doesn't make it a better movie!
    Far from it imho!

    I never said it did. I say doing something different may have made it less popular.

    @Getafix The franchise was on a downward slope. Even Dalton said that LTK might be the last Bond during filming.
    Just out of curiosity @Ludovico, do you know where this quote originates from and under which context it was said? I assume that it might have been said under the premise that Cubby was forced to shoot abroad, chiefly in the Churubuscu Studios in Mexico City as a cost-cutting exercise and had no clue whatsoever where the next 007 movie would be shot. Of course, this wasn't the first time that Bond had been forced abroad as MR also had to shoot at the studios d'Épinay (otherwise known as Éclair Studios in Paris) to save money, probably due to UA's wasting so much money on Heaven's Gate. I'm not sure whether you're implying that Dalton is saying that the future of 007 was uncertain because of his own casting rather than it being problems with financing and studio decisions?

    I'm pretty sure that quote from Dalton is in BONDAGE MAGAZINE issue # 16.
    He definitely said his feeling was that LTK would be the last one. Not HIS last one, the end of the whole lot. He said it was a "feeling" he had but wasn't speaking with any real authority on the subject.
  • Posts: 14,839
    I'm sure that didn't help him at the time.
  • Posts: 1,883
    A few things to add:

    -For those who came to be fans from the GE video game I say great, glad it got you on board. While not a gamer myself, if inspired others into discovering the legacy of the series that's a great thing. Sometimes I wish I could go back and do it all over again.

    -As far as people looking forward to Brosnan's Bond prior to GE, I've always found it curious as I've heard conflicting things. I've heard outside the U.S. he wasn't well known, save for things like The Fourth Protocol and a few other projects.

    Here in the U.S. he was anointed the next Bond when Remington Steele was in its first season and overwhelmingly won an Us Magazine poll at the time of the Battle of the Bonds. Then through several miniseries he stayed in the public eye. So how much was interest came primarily from people who knew him here through that series and the miniseries, primarily?

    -I believe the article in question about Dalton's quote about LTK being the last Bond film was an issue of the U.S. fan club publication Bondage in an interview with the club's founder Richard Schenkman. I have the magazine, but it's in storage with a lot of my other memorabilia, so I can't verify it.
  • Posts: 2,896
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    GE is one of a handful of Bond films (the others being GF, TSWLM and SF) that were huge hits but which also have a very outspoken group of critics who like to emphasize how overrated they are.

    Speaking as someone who thinks GF, TSWLM and SF are deservedly great, I'd say that GE is one of a handful of Bond films (the others being TB, DAF, MR, and DAD) that were huge hits at the time but have not aged gracefully. Like DAF it was hailed as a return to form, but the form was formula.
  • edited June 2018 Posts: 3,333
    Maybe Dalton was aware of the financial woes of MGM and other rumblings that were going on @ToTheRight? Clearly, in 1990 everybody concerned was still on board for a Dalton Bond 17 movie, despite whatever reservations Dalton might have held. They even took out a large ad which was placed outside the Carlton Hotel in Cannes, France, during the 1990 Cannes Film Festival to announce that Timothy Dalton would return as 007 in the not-yet-titled 17th Bond film, with an unspecified 1991 release date. But for Pathe Communications (the new owners at the time by November 1990) offering the Bond television rights to networks around the world, giving them long term rights to air the movies on their stations for a ridiculously low price, the lawsuit would never have happened and Dalton's third Bond movie would have been made in partnership with Walt Disney.

    Strange that no one ever brings up when Cubby put his company Danjaq up for sale for around $200 million in 1992. I remember that shock bit of news appearing in all the movie magazines and papers at the time. I seem to recall that the company was sought out by Joel Silver, the producer of the Die Hard and Lethal Weapon films, but when Cubby heard that Silver was planning to cast Mel Gibson (an American) as James Bond, he took the company off the market. Eventually, in December 1992, Cubby's lawsuit finally paid off, and the case reached a suitable conclusion and Pathe was kicked out of the partnership. As a result, MGM's debt continued to mount and they needed a new successful film to help pull them back out of the mire. The rest we know about, of course. Dalton's contract had expired and it gave the new chairman of UA the chance to replace Dalton, a portrayal he never cared for to begin with. By all accounts, Brosnan wasn't top of the list either. According to Liam Neeson himself, he turned the role down first opening up the chance for Brosnan to step in and take it. Maybe that's the reason why Brosnan never made waves with the scripts, grateful at his chance of becoming Bond?
  • Posts: 11,189
    I have to say you do get the feeling Brosnan was simply delighted to be there and acted as though he had won the lottery (his "crack it open" quip on the Eon documentary).
  • Posts: 15,818
    bondsum wrote: »
    Maybe Dalton was aware of the financial woes of MGM and other rumblings that were going on @ToTheRight? Clearly, in 1990 everybody concerned was still on board for a Dalton Bond 17 movie, despite whatever reservations Dalton might have held. They even took out a large ad which was placed outside the Carlton Hotel in Cannes, France, during the 1990 Cannes Film Festival to announce that Timothy Dalton would return as 007 in the not-yet-titled 17th Bond film, with an unspecified 1991 release date. But for Pathe Communications (the new owners at the time by November 1990) offering the Bond television rights to networks around the world, giving them long term rights to air the movies on their stations for a ridiculously low price, the lawsuit would never have happened and Dalton's third Bond movie would have been made in partnership with Walt Disney.

    Strange that no one ever brings up when Cubby put his company Danjaq up for sale for around $200 million in 1992. I remember that shock bit of news appearing in all the movie magazines and papers at the time. I seem to recall that the company was sought out by Joel Silver, the producer of the Die Hard and Lethal Weapon films, but when Cubby heard that Silver was planning to cast Mel Gibson (an American) as James Bond, he took the company off the market. Eventually, in December 1992, Cubby's lawsuit finally paid off, and the case reached a suitable conclusion and Pathe was kicked out of the partnership. As a result, MGM's debt continued to mount and they needed a new successful film to help pull them back out of the mire. The rest we know about, of course. Dalton's contract had expired and it gave the new chairman of UA the chance to replace Dalton, a portrayal he never cared for to begin with. By all accounts, Brosnan wasn't top of the list either. According to Liam Neeson himself, he turned the role down first opening up the chance for Brosnan to step in and take it. Maybe that's the reason why Brosnan never made waves with the scripts, grateful at his chance of becoming Bond?

    I'd like to find out more about that Danjaq sale. That's one bit of Bond history that rarely gets discussed or covered. I do remember an article in Cinefanstique regarding BOND 17 and the sale. I believe the article appeared sometime in late 1990.
  • Posts: 3,333
    I totally agree @ToTheRight. This was indeed catalytic news at the time. Everything was pointing to Joel Silver being the new owner and producer of the James Bond series in '92. That's why I find it hard to swallow the hyperbole of Brosnan saving the series, considering that a new series of Bond movies almost happened under an entirely different leadership. Basically, a new Bond movie would've happened anyway and it would no doubt have had a far bigger budget than GE's and an A-list actor in the role to boot. Bond never did need saving, it just needed a total makeover and some more money injected into it. Even as far back as 1990 Richard Maibaum and John Glen said that they wouldn't be involved in Dalton's third Bond movie, and with Disney involved, changes were already underway long before the Pathe lawsuit became the fly in the ointment.
  • Posts: 14,839
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I was not a fan of Brosnan when he was offered the role (I ended up liking him in GE; surprised), but let there be no doubt that the vibe and buzz surrounding his finally getting the part, the general excitement in the press and among the public, was huge in comparison to anything generated during the Dalton years.

    A new actor would have generated enthusiasm but not like that. Brosnan was pretty much plebiscited.
  • Posts: 15,818
    bondsum wrote: »
    I totally agree @ToTheRight. This was indeed catalytic news at the time. Everything was pointing to Joel Silver being the new owner and producer of the James Bond series in '92. That's why I find it hard to swallow the hyperbole of Brosnan saving the series, considering that a new series of Bond movies almost happened under an entirely different leadership. Basically, a new Bond movie would've happened anyway and it would no doubt have had a far bigger budget than GE's and an A-list actor in the role to boot. Bond never did need saving, it just needed a total makeover and some more money injected into it. Even as far back as 1990 Richard Maibaum and John Glen said that they wouldn't be involved in Dalton's third Bond movie, and with Disney involved, changes were already underway long before the Pathe lawsuit became the fly in the ointment.

    I remember seeing an interview with Mel Gibson where he stated he wasn't really interested in playing Bond. I wonder if, had Joel Silver gotten the rights if he might have changed his mind?
    Interestingly during the Dalton era, a lot of people I knew felt Gibson would have been perfect to play Bond instead of Tim. He was even in the polls for GoldenEye along with Pierce, Liam, and Hugh Grant. I believe Pierce won those polls with ease.
  • Posts: 3,333
    Can't disagree with that @Birdleson. Brosnan was definitely seen as "The Bond-that-should've-been" and also gave the ladies a new pin-up to drool over. The media knew that they had a face that could sell magazines and generate gossip. Plus, he was living in California and was right on their doorstep. We can be dismissive of Brosnan but we can't deny his popularity.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    I totally agree @ToTheRight. This was indeed catalytic news at the time. Everything was pointing to Joel Silver being the new owner and producer of the James Bond series in '92. That's why I find it hard to swallow the hyperbole of Brosnan saving the series, considering that a new series of Bond movies almost happened under an entirely different leadership. Basically, a new Bond movie would've happened anyway and it would no doubt have had a far bigger budget than GE's and an A-list actor in the role to boot. Bond never did need saving, it just needed a total makeover and some more money injected into it. Even as far back as 1990 Richard Maibaum and John Glen said that they wouldn't be involved in Dalton's third Bond movie, and with Disney involved, changes were already underway long before the Pathe lawsuit became the fly in the ointment.

    I remember seeing an interview with Mel Gibson where he stated he wasn't really interested in playing Bond. I wonder if, had Joel Silver gotten the rights if he might have changed his mind?
    Interestingly during the Dalton era, a lot of people I knew felt Gibson would have been perfect to play Bond instead of Tim. He was even in the polls for GoldenEye along with Pierce, Liam, and Hugh Grant. I believe Pierce won those polls with ease.

    Just as Robbie Williams did later.
  • Posts: 15,818
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    bondsum wrote: »
    I totally agree @ToTheRight. This was indeed catalytic news at the time. Everything was pointing to Joel Silver being the new owner and producer of the James Bond series in '92. That's why I find it hard to swallow the hyperbole of Brosnan saving the series, considering that a new series of Bond movies almost happened under an entirely different leadership. Basically, a new Bond movie would've happened anyway and it would no doubt have had a far bigger budget than GE's and an A-list actor in the role to boot. Bond never did need saving, it just needed a total makeover and some more money injected into it. Even as far back as 1990 Richard Maibaum and John Glen said that they wouldn't be involved in Dalton's third Bond movie, and with Disney involved, changes were already underway long before the Pathe lawsuit became the fly in the ointment.

    I remember seeing an interview with Mel Gibson where he stated he wasn't really interested in playing Bond. I wonder if, had Joel Silver gotten the rights if he might have changed his mind?
    Interestingly during the Dalton era, a lot of people I knew felt Gibson would have been perfect to play Bond instead of Tim. He was even in the polls for GoldenEye along with Pierce, Liam, and Hugh Grant. I believe Pierce won those polls with ease.

    Just as Robbie Williams did later.

    Haha!! I forgot about him.
  • edited June 2018 Posts: 15,818
    I wonder what a Joel Silver Bond series would have looked like? Would he have skipped the traditional elements, gun-barrel, PTS, titles sequence, title song, etc?
    Some of his films, LETHAL WEAPON 2, for instance show the title after the Warner's logo and the film immediately kicks into gear. I could see his Bond film doing that with Michael Kamen returning to compose the score.

    I almost think general audiences in 1992/1993 might have embraced a Joel SIlver/Mel Gibson Bond series.
  • Posts: 3,333
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I remember seeing an interview with Mel Gibson where he stated he wasn't really interested in playing Bond. I wonder if, had Joel Silver gotten the rights if he might have changed his mind?
    Interestingly during the Dalton era, a lot of people I knew felt Gibson would have been perfect to play Bond instead of Tim. He was even in the polls for GoldenEye along with Pierce, Liam, and Hugh Grant. I believe Pierce won those polls with ease.
    It's funny, but out of all the actors that have played Bond, I think Brosnan was the only one so far that really wanted the part. Connery didn't care about it, Moore turned it down to sign-up with Lew Grade again, Lazenby of course bailed, Dalton took some persuading as did Craig. I think most actors just see it as a poisoned chalice. But I think you're right, Silver would have offered him the world to take the role. In all honesty, I prefer that Brosnan eventually got the gig, but Gibson as 007 would've been huge in the US cinemas back in '93.
  • Posts: 11,189
    A lethal weapon becoming a blunt instrument ;)
  • Posts: 15,818
    As popular a Bond as Pierce was Mel was a HUGE star in the U.S.. Had he played Bond I don't doubt the film would have been a hit, whether it be a Joel Silver production, or even GoldenEye.

    Still I probably would have been pissed at the time had he been cast. I liked him, but not really for Bond.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Gibson turned down both Batman and Bond.
  • Posts: 3,333
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I wonder what a Joel Silver Bond series would have looked like? Would he have skipped the traditional elements, gun-barrel, PTS, titles sequence, title song, etc?
    Some of his films, LETHAL WEAPON 2, for instance show the title after the Warner's logo and the film immediately kicks into gear. I could see his Bond film doing that with Michael Kamen returning to compose the score.

    I almost think general audiences in 1992/1993 might have embraced a Joel SIlver/Mel Gibson Bond series.
    But for Lethal Weapon 3 the movie starts off with a song (not a great one) and has a fire motif playing across its background, which I kind of thought was a little nod to Bond at the time. Personally, I think Silver would've kept the gun-barrel, PTS and song intact. Most likely he would have just tried to make it the very best and most expensive PTS to open his Bond picture and get everybody fired up and talking about it.
  • Posts: 15,818
    bondsum wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I wonder what a Joel Silver Bond series would have looked like? Would he have skipped the traditional elements, gun-barrel, PTS, titles sequence, title song, etc?
    Some of his films, LETHAL WEAPON 2, for instance show the title after the Warner's logo and the film immediately kicks into gear. I could see his Bond film doing that with Michael Kamen returning to compose the score.

    I almost think general audiences in 1992/1993 might have embraced a Joel SIlver/Mel Gibson Bond series.
    But for Lethal Weapon 3 the movie starts off with a song (not a great one) and has a fire motif playing across its background, which I kind of thought was a little nod to Bond at the time. Personally, I think Silver would've kept the gun-barrel, PTS and song intact. Most likely he would have just tried to make it the very best and most expensive PTS to open his Bond picture and get everybody fired up and talking about it.

    I might have been okay with that. This topic kind of makes me want to revisit some of the LETHAL WEAPON movies. I haven't seen the 3rd or 4th ones in a very long time.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Gibson turned down both Batman and Bond.

    I’m sure you know Brosnan also turned down Batman.
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