Which bit undermines an otherwise good film...

edited February 2014 in Bond Movies Posts: 1,314
Just watched OHMSS. Great stuff. Although one thing rankles with me. Bond is already deeply involved with Tracy before the Piz Gloria scenes. The fact he shags 2 maybe three girls up there doesn't really fit with their story. Feels like the writers felt obliged to add a seduced body count to the film unnecessarily.

Any more.
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Comments

  • edited February 2014 Posts: 2,483
    Bond's womanizing in OHMSS didn't bother me. That's just what Bond does. And it's not as if they were betrothed.

    Now to the task at hand. There's a section of MR that, to me, severely degrades what could have been an upper echelon Bond film. The section begins with Bond bowling Goodhead out, pretty as you please, as a CIA agent in her Venice hotel room, and concludes with bond daffily riding across a field wearing a Clint Eastwood poncho and with the Magnificent Seven theme droning in the background. Now granted, MR was never intended to be a serious Bond film, but during the section in question, the silliness becomes inane, almost farcical to an extent not reached until DAD came puking onto the scene. If the people in charge had kept MR grounded just a bit more during this section, I think it would have been a much better film.
  • Posts: 1,314
    I always think you could cut 30 seconds out if Moonraker and have a much better film.
  • Bond's philandering in OHMSS took me out f that film as well. If sleeping with those women were required for the mission, then that's one thing but sleeping with them and marrying Tracy seems dirty, even for Bond.

    This is probably an obvious choice for a lot of people but if they'd managed to trim the underwater battle scene in TB by about five or ten minutes, it would greatly raise the film in my estimations.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    If they had cut some silly moments out from Octopussy (such as the Tarzan yell and some "slightly" stereotypical scenes in India) I think it would have been an excellent film. But, as the title of this thread says, those scenes reduced the film to 'good' standard.
  • Posts: 2,400
    "I love James so much" and a cheerful Felix at the end of LTK (I almost feel like the film should've ended with Bond sitting on the rock in the wreckage of the tanker, as much as I do love the ending with him and Pam in the pool) could probably have both been taken out. The film is still brilliant nonetheless.
  • DCisaredDCisared Liverpool
    Posts: 1,329
    The whole fight scene at the floating casino in skyfall. Way to slapstick and not brutal enough.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited February 2014 Posts: 23,449
    Bond's bedding of other women in OHMSS never bothered me for that would mean that I'd be applying certain 'ethics of romance' that are entirely out of place in the universe of Bond. Case in point, Bond's marriage with Tracy doesn't last very long; it's as if James Bond is denied that section of life's precious happinesses. His parents struggled with marriage too and it caused their unfortunate demise. When in the Fleming novels Bond considers marrying a girl (other than Tracy), by the force of irony he doesn't even reach the altar. And back to Tracy's case, Bond had already consumed the 'marriage' before the actual event took place. One could argue that the concept of marriage falls victim to mockery in the Bond universe.
  • DCisared wrote:
    The whole fight scene at the floating casino in skyfall. Way to slapstick and not brutal enough.

    One of my favorite fights in the whole series. People forget a Bond film is supposed to have some occasional lightness of touch.
  • DCisared wrote:
    The whole fight scene at the floating casino in skyfall. Way to slapstick and not brutal enough.

    One of my favorite fights in the whole series. People forget a Bond film is supposed to have some occasional lightness of touch.

    Well said. As much as I love a "serious" Bond it was so refreshing to see Craig's Bond have a little old school Roger Moore fun.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    "I love James so much" and a cheerful Felix at the end of LTK (I almost feel like the film should've ended with Bond sitting on the rock in the wreckage of the tanker, as much as I do love the ending with him and Pam in the pool) could probably have both been taken out. The film is still brilliant nonetheless.
    It certainly would have been a more powerful and contemplative ending. At the very least they could have Bond and Pam ride off together in the desert sun and leave Bond's future in question.

    As far as OHMSS goes, Bond's womanizing doesn't bother me from a moral standpoint. It's the fact that all of his shenanigans end up with him getting captured. It just didn't seem like the wisest way to go about your business while undercover.
  • edited February 2014 Posts: 1,778
    pachazo wrote:
    "I love James so much" and a cheerful Felix at the end of LTK (I almost feel like the film should've ended with Bond sitting on the rock in the wreckage of the tanker, as much as I do love the ending with him and Pam in the pool) could probably have both been taken out. The film is still brilliant nonetheless.
    It certainly would have been a more powerful and contemplative ending. At the very least they could have Bond and Pam ride off together in the desert sun and leave Bond's future in question.

    As far as OHMSS goes, Bond's womanizing doesn't bother me from a moral standpoint. It's the fact that all of his shenanigans end up with him getting captured. It just didn't seem like the wisest way to go about your business while undercover.

    Yeah things get wrapped up a little too quickly and conveniently in LTK. I would've preferred Bond, beaten and bloodied, walking off into the sunset alone, just as he's been the whole movie. And like the above stated, with his future uncertain. And then Bond 17 would focus on Bond getting back into the Secret Service.
  • Posts: 2,400
    Here's how I look at it: As the end of Dalton's Bond as a whole, I love him and Pam in the pool.

    As the end of just LTK, it would've been better in the desert.
  • edited February 2014 Posts: 317
    DCisared wrote:
    The whole fight scene at the floating casino in skyfall. Way to slapstick and not brutal enough.

    What? That entire scene was fantastic!!!
    DCisared wrote:
    The whole fight scene at the floating casino in skyfall. Way to slapstick and not brutal enough.

    One of my favorite fights in the whole series. People forget a Bond film is supposed to have some occasional lightness of touch.

    Well said. As much as I love a "serious" Bond it was so refreshing to see Craig's Bond have a little old school Roger Moore fun.

    Agreed, I loved the look Craig gave when he saw that big Komodo Dragon come out in to the pit. LOL

    I loved the entire scene on the floating casino. First of all the scenery was amazing. The give and take between Eve and Bond was great. The conversation between Bond and Severine was wonderful. I thought the fight was short but sweet.

  • Birdleson wrote:
    Didn't care for the CGI dragons at all. If you are going o do a homage to a classic Bond scene that used real reptiles, use real reptiles.

    Those were CGI ? Looked real to me. :-/
  • edited February 2014 Posts: 1,314
    I agree on Skyfall. The casino scene is classic from the moment he arrives by boat to the moment he leaves. The Severine scene is very good.

    "I love James so much" in LTK is a double take moment.

  • DCisaredDCisared Liverpool
    Posts: 1,329
    I'm talking about the fight scene , it doesn't match up with the brilliant and believable scenes in CR and QOS. That's one of Craigs most endearing qualities as bond for me, him being believable. Even the train fight isn't as brutal as in the two previous films and Its personal taste but It did take a little enjoyment away for me.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    DCisared wrote:
    I'm talking about the fight scene , it doesn't match up with the brilliant and believable scenes in CR and QOS. That's one of Craigs most endearing qualities as bond for me, him being believable. Even the train fight isn't as brutal as in the two previous films and Its personal taste but It did take a little enjoyment away for me.

    I agree on the "Komodo dragons". I thought it was the worst scene in the film. The Komodo dragons were awful, the CGI only being a little bit better than the CGI we got in Die Another Day.
  • I agree on the casino fight scene. Bond films need humour but it needs to fit in with the tone of the film. SF mostly did a good job of this, there were some funny lines, but the casino fight was so out of place.

    The Komodo dragon fight I thought was too jarring. One minute we're hearing about Severine's tragic backstory, the next we have Daniel Craig acting like a poor mans Roger Moore (two one liners in a row? Really?). Didn't fit in well with the film I thought.

    Plus the fight itself was poor imo. No sense of danger, no brutality, and some poor CGI. Easily the worst bit of the film for me.
  • DCisaredDCisared Liverpool
    Posts: 1,329
    I agree on the casino fight scene. Bond films need humour but it needs to fit in with the tone of the film. SF mostly did a good job of this, there were some funny lines, but the casino fight was so out of place.

    The Komodo dragon fight I thought was too jarring. One minute we're hearing about Severine's tragic backstory, the next we have Daniel Craig acting like a poor mans Roger Moore (two one liners in a row? Really?). Didn't fit in well with the film I thought.

    Plus the fight itself was poor imo. No sense of danger, no brutality, and some poor CGI. Easily the worst bit of the film for me.

    this , this and this . Spot on mate.
  • edited February 2014 Posts: 14,799
    Matt007 wrote:
    Just watched OHMSS. Great stuff. Although one thing rankles with me. Bond is already deeply involved with Tracy before the Piz Gloria scenes. The fact he shags 2 maybe three girls up there doesn't really fit with their story. Feels like the writers felt obliged to add a seduced body count to the film unnecessarily.

    Any more.

    It never bothered me. Bond never struck me as monogamous and him having a fling on the side, especially to progress in his mission, changes nothing with his relationship with Tracy. Had she lived, I don't think he would have been faithful. One may find it immoral, but it is very much in character. It was also in the novel, although better explained.
  • Posts: 14,799
    Birdleson wrote:
    Didn't care for the CGI dragons at all. If you are going o do a homage to a classic Bond scene that used real reptiles, use real reptiles.

    You know how much more expensive that scene would be with real Komodo dragons? Besides, it's not like they can be tamed or trained. Nowadays, the film industry is more sensitive to security on set, not to mention animal rights.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    I have more of a problem with the gadget-laden DB5 than I do with the Komodo dragons. The DB5 makes no narrative sense and is merely there as a crowd-pleaser. It's not enough to undermine the film as a whole, but it certainly undermines the logic of it.
  • Posts: 14,799
    Birdleson wrote:
    That doesn't make it anymore palatable.

    We can complain about the scene itself, but the CGIs were inevitable. I strongly dislike CGIs and think they are overused, but sometimes they are sadly inevitable. If they were to recreate the fight against the squid from DN, they would not use a real squid either. (Now on a side note, I would have LOVED this scene in the 1962 film, with FX made by Ray Harryhausen. Not sure if it would have diminish the overall quality of the movie though.)
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    OHMSS is a perfect film for me, I give it 10/10 and easily rank it at the top of my favourite Bond movies list.
    However, what bothers me is the classic arrangement of The James Bond Theme played at Piz Gloria assault. Not only John Barry's "Battle At Piz Gloria" is way better, but that arrangement of the James Bond theme makes the movie look so much dated. Couldn't Peter Hunt simply use "This never happened to the other fellow"'s arrengement of JB theme or ask John Barry to write a new one?
  • Matt007 wrote:
    I always think you could cut 30 seconds out if Moonraker and have a much better film.

    Would you mind saying what 30 seconds you are talking about? You don't mean the parachuting scene,do you?
  • DCisared wrote:
    The whole fight scene at the floating casino in skyfall. Way to slapstick and not brutal enough.

    One of my favorite fights in the whole series. People forget a Bond film is supposed to have some occasional lightness of touch.

    Yes, but the way Bond is Raising his fists is bordering on parody. In my opinion this scene is worse than the complete fighting legacy of Moore.
  • I agree on the casino fight scene. Bond films need humour but it needs to fit in with the tone of the film. SF mostly did a good job of this, there were some funny lines, but the casino fight was so out of place.

    The Komodo dragon fight I thought was too jarring. One minute we're hearing about Severine's tragic backstory, the next we have Daniel Craig acting like a poor mans Roger Moore (two one liners in a row? Really?). Didn't fit in well with the film.

    Agreed. I have no problem with the scene itself or the CGI but is too inconsistent with the tone of SF.
  • Posts: 14,799
    Birdleson wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    Birdleson wrote:
    That doesn't make it anymore palatable.

    We can complain about the scene itself, but the CGIs were inevitable. I strongly dislike CGIs and think they are overused, but sometimes they are sadly inevitable.


    I don't think it is inevitable. I think EON can learn from it's mistakes. Look at the backlash they received for using the CGI in DIE ANOTHER DAY, which resulted in a very raw and human CASINO ROYALE. Don't settle for compromise with things like the dragons. That's a slippery slope.

    I should precise: if you wanted Komodo dragons, or indeed aggressive wild animals, CGIs were inevitable, at least to a good deal of the scene. The scene did not bother me, as I don't think they were that bad and they were not heavily featured: the dragons reacted as I thought they would in such circumstances. Of course, whether or not there should be Komodo dragons, or sharks, or squids in a Bond movie is an entirely different debate. If they do want them, there is going to be some CGIs. And this is why I don't think there should be yet a fight against a squid in a Bond movie.
  • Posts: 14,799
    Matt_Helm wrote:
    DCisared wrote:
    The whole fight scene at the floating casino in skyfall. Way to slapstick and not brutal enough.

    One of my favorite fights in the whole series. People forget a Bond film is supposed to have some occasional lightness of touch.

    Yes, but the way Bond is Raising his fists is bordering on parody. In my opinion this scene is worse than the complete fighting legacy of Moore.

    I didn't see it like this. At the time it happens, Bond is still recovering from months of drinking abuse and is still in poor physical condition. He is not at his peak and thus the fight had to look clumsy. I love the escalation in SF: when he trains in the new MI6 Bond is at his worst, then he fails to take Patrice alive, then he does slightly better with the Triads, then overpowers Silva's men, to finally be back at the top of his game in the final confrontation at Skyfall.
  • edited February 2014 Posts: 381
    "I love James so much" and a cheerful Felix at the end of LTK (I almost feel like the film should've ended with Bond sitting on the rock in the wreckage of the tanker, as much as I do love the ending with him and Pam in the pool) could probably have both been taken out. The film is still brilliant nonetheless.

    Felix was a bit too upbeat at the end, yes. The pool scene was a bit cheesy, but this was an 80s film, so I give it a pass.

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