Is Pierce Brosnan really all that bad ??

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  • edited July 2013 Posts: 12,279
    @chrisisall You and me are the same boat. Dalton fans who also appreciate the likes of Moore and (particularly) Brosnan.

    @actonsteve You say this a lot but I find it hard taking it seriously coming from you when you're a fan of the likes of DAF. That film is definition of lazy.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 9,305
    Nah, Pierce was always awesome. I agree that his best performance was in DAD- he seemed entirely comfortable in the role by that point. He looked the part, and his fight scenes in GE (cradle fight) and DAD (Blades sword fight) were great. I've read that he was chasing a more gritty/realistic portrayal. Wish he got it, or at least give him a more serious film than DAD in '04 and go out on a high note. I love all four of his films, despite their faults. I guess my soft spot for Brozza comes from discovering the world of Bond a year before GE was released, and my first cinema experience being TND.
    pierce_brosnan+for+blog.JPG
  • edited July 2013 Posts: 11,169
    @actonsteve does have a point

    Truth be told i suspect each incarnation, regardless of what they do with the character or how "revolutionary" they are in their debut, risks becoming "tired and lazy" after a while. Connery became tired in DAF and Moore was tired in AVTAK. Those two had v different versions of the same character. One could say they "defined" the character for their generation just like Broz did for mine.

    Give Craig a few more films and some will be calling for change. Indeed one of the criticisms I've heard re. SF is that they've gone back to the Bond of old with a few new " trendy" editions.

    However with Brosnan it's hard to argue that the creative team weren't "lazy and complacent" towards the end

    Mr Kil anyone...?

    I like Broz but I have to reluctantly admit that he never really seemed to take charge of events himself. I'm beginning to realise that Instead he left the big creative stuff to the writers and just did as he was told. He may have made some suggestions but the bulk of the creativity seemed to come from above him.

    He even says in the DAD audio commentary that he was "just along for the ride".
  • Posts: 1,492
    @actonsteve You say this a lot but I find it hard taking it seriously coming from you when you're a fan of the likes of DAF. That film is definition of lazy.

    What has that got to do with the argument in hand? Your getting peevish because you know there is something in what i say.

    Pierce isnt that kind of actor. He is lightweight and cant do the characterisation that tim and dan can
  • Posts: 11,169
    I think Pierce is a better actor now than he was 25 years ago when he certainly was "lightweight" (thanks to Bond he's being given much "deeper" roles than he otherwise would have) but he's not a "great" actor.
  • edited July 2013 Posts: 12,279
    actonsteve wrote:
    @actonsteve You say this a lot but I find it hard taking it seriously coming from you when you're a fan of the likes of DAF. That film is definition of lazy.

    What has that got to do with the argument in hand? Your getting peevish because you know there is something in what i say.

    Pierce isnt that kind of actor. He is lightweight and cant do the characterisation that tim and dan can

    You were complaining about the Brosnan era being lazy but then you love DAF, one of the laziest films in the franchise. If you don't like Bond getting too lazy then why do you let that film off?

    Nobody said Pierce was that kind of actor. My point is he didn't have to be. He didn't play Flemings Bond and he didn't drastically change the character.

    But I couldn't give a shit about that personally because I thought he did a very good job playing the cinematic Bond.

    The Dalton films are like brilliant medium rare steaks while the Brosnan films are like good burgers, the kind you'd put on a barbecue. Of course the steak is better but I love a good burger every once in a while.

    This is of course excluding DAD, which is a cheap burger at a football match that somebody dropped and didn't bother picking up so now it's been sitting half eaten on the floor since half time.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited July 2013 Posts: 16,075
    This is of course excluding DAD, which is a cheap burger at a football match that somebody dropped and didn't bother picking up so now it's been sitting half eaten on the floor since half time.
    I found it and took a bite. Not bad, considering.
    :))
  • Posts: 686
    I think Bros has more personality than Craig. I wasn't disappointed in his performance, just lackluster movies.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded Dancing at midnight under the BeBop Moon
    Posts: 11,735
    @actonsteve, we just disagree about Pierce, that's all. I thought he was a fine Bond. You can write up all you want about your take on his Bond, which is what this forum is about really - just our opinions - but that doesn't mean others will come around to your ideas or that we get peevish. I don't think there is something in what you said regarding Brosnan; we simply disagree. Which I can do without animosity, peevishness, or thinking that you have a grain of truth in your opinion. It's just our opinions, after all. And we differ.
  • Posts: 5,634
    Simply not going to give the usual names the spotlight or plateau they crave or seek, but on this issue, if anyone wants to berate Brosnan, then isn't it fair enough ? It's what forums like these are essentially all about. It's good to have a range of opinion. Got to say again, that I always felt Pierce Brosnan was one of the most detached of all the actors from the actual Fleming creation. He actually was impressive every now and again, and displayed real Fleming-esque characteristics, but the sum total, was rather a disappointment. Just didn't have the feel of Bond, just never really warmed to him. Of course Brosnan himself is an actor of caliber, an established, well recognized name, but unfortunately, it didn't really work out for him as Bond from this perspective. For real Fleming type Bonds or nearest resemblance to what the creator intended, only Connery and Dalton ever came near. Brosnan's a long distance from that plateau I'm afraid, but once again, it's all about opinions
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 16,075
    Which I can do without animosity, peevishness, or thinking that you have a grain of truth in your opinion.
    Yeah, at the end of the day I can watch any of Brosnan's movies and have a great time. Or most of the other actor's movies.
    That's entertainment!
    ;)
  • edited July 2013 Posts: 11,169
    Just been watching the last 20 minutes of TWINE on the Sky Movies 007 channel. Its really not that good :( Its just so clunky.

    (Though I do admit to smiling at the final line)

    TLD is on now. Even though I have a few issues its EASILY the better film (bar the Moneypenny sequence).

    TWINE for me is now in the same bracket as AVTAK. Not quite among the worst lot in the series but still a relitively forgettable film.
  • Posts: 12,595
    Brosnan was not that bad, he just was not that good either. Yes, he was not served by the scripts he received, but he never really lift them either. Looking back at it, his tenure was overall a disappointment, although not always through his own fault. He simply lacked the acting skills and the character to really bring something new to the character. I would however say that commercially speaking he played a role into making Bond hot again.
  • Posts: 12,279
    I quite like TWINE. Brosnan overacts a bit, Renard is underused and it definitely goes downhill towards the end but I like Elektra, the story, the score, the theme song and the action scenes.

    It also has a touching final appearance from Q, a brilliant PTS and some fresh ideas they're reusing now (MI6 getting blown up, Bond getting injured, M being a big part of the story, etc).
  • edited July 2013 Posts: 11,169
    I quite like TWINE. Brosnan overacts a bit, Renard is underused and it definitely goes downhill towards the end but I like Elektra, the story, the score, the theme song and the action scenes.

    It also has a touching final appearance from Q, a brilliant PTS and some fresh ideas they're reusing now (MI6 getting blown up, Bond getting injured, M being a big part of the story, etc).

    I used to like TWINE a lot more but I don't think it holds up that well. That said there are some good scenes here and there.
  • BAIN123 wrote:
    Just been watching the last 20 minutes of TWINE on the Sky Movies 007 channel. Its really not that good :( Its just so clunky.

    (Though I do admit to smiling at the final line)

    TLD is on now. Even though I have a few issues its EASILY the better film (bar the Moneypenny sequence).

    TWINE for me is now in the same bracket as AVTAK. Not quite among the worst lot in the series but still a relatively forgettable film.

    That's a solid and in my opinion an accurate assessment of TWINE. All of the official 23 films, as I am fond of saying, have some good moments that make them re-watchable. The rest is personal taste as to how much any given film is watchable. Brosnan's first two films I find to be much more watchable than his last two and I still enjoy both tremendously. GE is a great story with great characters, and TND is pure popcorn entertainment if you enjoy the likes of YOLT and TSWLM, which I do. Other than Elektra and Zukovsky, I simply don't enjoy TWINE. Brosnan's worst performance as Bond (yes, for me he was better overall in DAD) and the wasting of Carlyle, both attributable to Apted's direction and a poor script that fails to support the premise of the story, are why I cannot support TWINE as anything more than one who joins DAD, MR, DAF, and TMWTGG in my personal bottom five.

  • edited July 2013 Posts: 12,595
    I quite like TWINE. Brosnan overacts a bit, Renard is underused and it definitely goes downhill towards the end but I like Elektra, the story, the score, the theme song and the action scenes.

    It also has a touching final appearance from Q, a brilliant PTS and some fresh ideas they're reusing now (MI6 getting blown up, Bond getting injured, M being a big part of the story, etc).

    I like TWINE too. It is very, very, very flawed though, but it might be Brosnan's best. That said, I never liked the PTS all that much. And a recent interview with Apted, when he was very arrogant about it, made me appreciate much less.
  • Posts: 11,169
    Ludovico wrote:
    I quite like TWINE. Brosnan overacts a bit, Renard is underused and it definitely goes downhill towards the end but I like Elektra, the story, the score, the theme song and the action scenes.

    It also has a touching final appearance from Q, a brilliant PTS and some fresh ideas they're reusing now (MI6 getting blown up, Bond getting injured, M being a big part of the story, etc).

    I like TWINE too. It is very, very, very flawed though, but it might be Brosnan's best. That said, I never liked the PTS all that much. And a recent interview with Apted, when he was very arrogant about it, made me appreciate much less.

    You see...I'm iffy about Apted too. He's articulate and has quite a good back catalogue but he seems to think TWINE is a better movie than it actually is. I can remember listening to the audio commentary on the TWINE dvd in which he describes Brosnan's performance as "powerful" - during the scene in which he confronts Electra.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited July 2013 Posts: 18,135
    Apted overrated his Bond film a little at the time, but at the time I couldn't blame him. Amidst all the promotion sessions, of course you make it sound as if your film is the one and only. But in retrospect, I think it would be more appreciated if he could reflect on TWINE in a more honest fashion. The entire film is, in my opinion, about being almost there, but not quiet. TWINE in some places overdid it and in others underperformed. To call out small possibilities for improvement would make him much more credible.

    Of course my tongue is poisoned when it comes to TWINE as I notoriously have something of a grudge with it. Despite my amusement with the film in the most basic way, I can point out so many elements that get me angry when I give them too much thought. I was still working from the GoldenEye ideal back in the day and when I noticed that they were working on something perhaps closer to that splendid film than to TND, I had my hopes running fairly high. But the overall experience wasn't at all as satisfying as that. I too have reflected over the years, learning to dismiss the GE ideal as a template for future Bonds and learning to trace the good things in each Bond film, a huge endeavour when it comes to TWINE and DAD. But strangely enough, I have accomplished much more of a reconciliation with DAD than I have with TWINE to the point where I actually prefer DAD over TWINE as the better film. Why? Simple. DAD is at times so over the top, so openly spreading its legs for the anything-goes idea, if you're in the right mindset you can go with it. TWINE, by contrast, continuously tries to impress me on an intellectual level with supposedly brilliant script choices and stylish shots. But after the OC, I always find myself gravitating more to utter confusion and silliness. With story arcs about nephews in the military just detouring a nuclear submarine for a few hours, or Bond's incredible deduction based on a single phrase, it never pulled me in as much as it actually pulled me out of the enjoyment. At least DAD would have done those things with an extra smirk, like having Halle Berry say the 'serious' line to unintentionally elicit a good dose of laughter.

    Amidst all that is the Brozzer, clearly in pain, and I'm not talking about the chair or the shoulder. I'm referring to the fact that Pierce was always very vocal about willing to do a proper Fleming film. Some say he couldn't have pulled that off. I'm saying he wasn't granted the chance of proving he could. I never blame Brosnan for what occurred between '97 and '02. He's as much a victim in many respects as we are. I like him as an actor and specifically as Bond. He was the right Bond for the 90s and he gave the role everything he had in him. We'll never know how it would have turned out had he stayed on for a few more, including perhaps CR (but without the 'origin story'). So while Apted should have by now reached the point of admitting that TWINE is fundamentally flawed, I see no reason why Brosnan should ever apologise.
  • Posts: 12,595
    Oh I still consider DAD to be the worst of the Brosnan movies, actually the worst Bond movie, period. What made me reconsider TWINE's qualities are the arrogant comments of Michael Apted, which not only bloated TWINE's merits, but dismissed previous Bond movies, and no small Bond movies.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 16,075
    DarthDimi wrote:
    I see no reason why Brosnan should ever apologise.
    You rock, sir.
  • Posts: 12,595
    What I do not like about Brosnan is how he reacted after he was replaced. Like a prima donna.
  • Ludovico wrote:
    What I do not like about Brosnan is how he reacted after he was replaced. Like a prima donna.

    Definitely not a shining moment in his career, but I can sense his frustration after the last 2 scripts all but sabotaged any chance he had to get the kind of story he wanted.
  • edited July 2013 Posts: 12,279
    Ludovico wrote:
    What I do not like about Brosnan is how he reacted after he was replaced. Like a prima donna.

    To be fair if I was sacked from my dream job because the producers made some idiotic choices and now wanted to completely start from scratch, then I'd be pretty pissed off too.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 18,135
    Ludovico wrote:
    What I do not like about Brosnan is how he reacted after he was replaced. Like a prima donna.

    At least he deserved a memorable swan song, and memorable for the right reasons. ;-) I can see him being very reluctant to go out without a film at least as good as his first. ;-)
  • edited July 2013 Posts: 12,595
    Ludovico wrote:
    What I do not like about Brosnan is how he reacted after he was replaced. Like a prima donna.

    To be fair if I was sacked from my dream job because the producers made some idiotic choices and now wanted to completely start from scratch, then I'd be pretty pissed off too.

    He was 50 at the time. I know, Moore was older when he left Bond, but he also had stretched credibility. Brosnan did not have another Bond movie in him, let alone two or three as he claimed he had (or was it Jonathan Ross sucking up to him?)
  • Posts: 12,279
    I think he could've done another. Not CR as there's no way he could've done the stunts in that convincingly but he definitely had another in him I thought. He aged pretty well imo
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 16,075
    Ludovico wrote:
    Brosnan did not have another Bond movie in him, let alone two or three as he claimed he had

    I'm assuming you are aware that this is merely your opinion; one might mistake this as an attempt at stating a fact or something. ;)
  • edited July 2013 Posts: 11,169
    I think he could've done another. Not CR as there's no way he could've done the stunts in that convincingly but he definitely had another in him I thought. He aged pretty well imo

    Brosnan in DAD looked better than Connery did in DAF in my opinion - and Brosnan was about 8 years older than Connery when he did his last Bond film.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 16,075
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Brosnan in DAD looked better than Connery did in DAF in my opinion - and Brosnan was about 8 years older than Connery when he did his last Bond film.

    48/49 during DAD? Check out his shirtless scenes- he looked amazing.
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