About the NAZIs....

j7wildj7wild Suspended
edited June 2011 in General Discussion Posts: 823
I love World War 2 movies that shows Nazis getting slaughtered and their asses whooped by the good guys but you got to admit,

they sure had an awesome war machine!!

Until the U.S. came along and caught up in technology and weapons in 1944, the Nazi had the best technology, the best weapons, the best tanks, the best warplanes, the best Soldiers and Officers!!

I wonder what the world would be like today if the U.S. never entered World War 2 officially and Hitler and Japan won in Europe and the Pacific.

I would think Europe and the Pacific and part of Africa and the Middle East would be under Nazi and Japanese Empire control and the United States would still continue to exist ;

but as an Isolationist Country and life and business will go on.

We as a nation would be trading goods and services with Nazi and Japanese occupied countries and with Japan and Nazi Germany.

Comments

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 17,969
    I wonder what the world would be like today if the U.S. never entered World War 2 officially and Hitler and Japan won in Europe and the Pacific.
    The entire Jewisch population would have been exterminated, probably along with several other non-Arian peoples.

    Once you reach a certain age or find yourself disabled, the law would state that you'd be killed.

    Freedom of speech: gone.

    ...

    It'd be a nightmare.
  • j7wildj7wild Suspended
    Posts: 823
    Philip K. Dick had a book about this and it was really eye opening and scary too:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_in_the_High_Castle
  • Posts: 2,460
    Philip K. Dick is THE BEST sci-fi author ever if not the best overall
  • ChevronChevron Northern Ireland
    Posts: 359
    Also check out Fatherland by Robert Harris. It's set in the 1960s where there is a sort of cold war between the USA and the German Reich instead of Russia.
  • j7wildj7wild Suspended
    Posts: 823
    I read Fatherland but the movie was not so good!

  • Until the U.S. came along and caught up in technology and weapons in 1944, the Nazi had the best technology, the best weapons, the best tanks, the best warplanes, the best Soldiers and Officers!!
    Have to take you to task over aeroplanes - the early Spitfire was matched against the Me109 and the Mk.IX onwards were a match for the FW190.

    And that's without bringing the Hurricane and Lancaster into the "argument"
  • doubleonothingdoubleonothing Los Angeles Moderator
    Posts: 864

    Until the U.S. came along and caught up in technology and weapons in 1944, the Nazi had the best technology, the best weapons, the best tanks, the best warplanes, the best Soldiers and Officers!!
    Well, I think that's untrue.

    Certainly the Nazis had good weapons had technology. Look at the ENIGMA machine. But the British had Bletchley Park, RADAR and the bouncing bomb.

    The best warplanes, as Mark_Hazard suggests, also belonged to the Brits, and also the statistically better pilots in terms of air to air combat.

    The best soldiers and officers? Well, that's subjective, isn't it? I mean who is the better soldier? The one who blindly follows orders to execute innocent civilians or the one who refuses to follow that order?

    On a side note, I would suggest that publicly posting your admiration for the Nazis, no matter how veiled, is possibly not the smartest thing to do. It reeks of bad taste and poor judgement.



  • edited June 2011 Posts: 886

    Until the U.S. came along and caught up in technology and weapons in 1944, the Nazi had the best technology, the best weapons, the best tanks, the best warplanes, the best Soldiers and Officers!!
    Well, I think that's untrue.

    Certainly the Nazis had good weapons had technology. Look at the ENIGMA machine. But the British had Bletchley Park, RADAR and the bouncing bomb.

    The best warplanes, as Mark_Hazard suggests, also belonged to the Brits, and also the statistically better pilots in terms of air to air combat.

    The best soldiers and officers? Well, that's subjective, isn't it? I mean who is the better soldier? The one who blindly follows orders to execute innocent civilians or the one who refuses to follow that order?

    On a side note, I would suggest that publicly posting your admiration for the Nazis, no matter how veiled, is possibly not the smartest thing to do. It reeks of bad taste and poor judgement.



    Agree with Dublo and M Hazard here...let's not forget the dear old Wellington bomber..but I can see what J7Wild was aiming for here in his thought process..

    Many things kept the Nazi's from invading the UK shores, not only the sheer bravery on the home-front but the fact that Germany had a crap Navy, let's be honest here..

    Posting about Nazism/Third Reich stuff is applicable when talking of strategy, facts etc etc but in this day and age, it does have to be carefully put regarding the 'admiration' angle. I have many books on them, find them fascinating what when on in their minds, the SS and the sheer psychosis of their dedication to Hitler. And of course on Hitler himself...does that make me a fan of them, no just the thirst for history and no matter how ugly it was, it happened and I feel it's a part of the world's history that everyone should read about TBH.

    Having said all that, the bravery, intelligence and sheer will power of the Allied Forces are something which will never be forgotten and remain a constant source of pride for me and many others.
    We are forever indebted.



  • j7wildj7wild Suspended
    Posts: 823
    I am not admiring the Nazis for what they did to the world; I am admiring them for their weapons and their equipment.

    Even their Officers had better clothing than the Allied officers.

    How many WW2 movies have you seen where the Nazi Officers had leather coats and jackets and expensive looking trench coats, etc?

    Then the technology they had is the reason we have many of the technology we have today.

    The Moon Space program would not had happened without the Nazi's scientists;

    many of the weapons we use today were invented by the Nazis.

    I do think their army were better than the Allies: better trained, better organized, more disciplined, etc

    The US Army had a rude awakening in North Africa; they thought they were gonna kick Rommel's butt just because they were Americans and instead, they got routed big time until Patton took over!

    The reason they lost to the Allies is because of the USA supplying the Allies with more war material and equipment than the Nazi were able to keep up; after losing most of their best men and war material in Russia and their factories were not able to keep up with production - being pretty much bombed 24/7 by the Allies' Air Forces.

    Even toward the end, when they knew the war was lost, the Nazis were able to mount an impressive attack in the Battle of the Bulge.

    Most other Armies would had given up, its men would had not followed order due to low morale but the Nazis just kept going until they ran out of men and material.
  • edited June 2011 Posts: 886


    How many WW2 movies have you seen where the Nazi Officers had leather coats and jackets and expensive looking trench coats, etc?
    Because the wardrobe department that day had a special on jodhpurs, raincoats and motorcycle jackets left over from the filming of Colditz?

    You mention movies and you must remember, they are exaggerated views on history to say the least. Let's keep history on this in perspective for what is truly was...a group of dangerously sick people who were led by 'man' who designed his strategies by consulting ruins and astrology on a daily basis and spent half the time sending his armies (along with their high morale) to search for anything pertaining to the Holy Grail (for he felt himself a Messiah for the Aryan race) whilst conducting a genocide so ungodly that words fail to express it.

    My "admiration" (note the inverted commas that I have used and did use on my previous post) for their weaponry, strategy and the suchlike only goes to a point, let me make myself clear on that.

    No matter if you feel the Allies were inferior (if I am reading that correctly), they still conquered at extreme odds then according from your viewpoint. Makes the winning even more stunning and heroic.

    I guess the Nazi fashion wasn't quite enough to win the day was it?

    However, I respect your views and I now I have voiced mine.
    I bid you good evening Mr Wild.


  • j7wildj7wild Suspended
    Posts: 823


    How many WW2 movies have you seen where the Nazi Officers had leather coats and jackets and expensive looking trench coats, etc?

    I actually own a couple of books on Nazi uniforms and the ones you seen in the movies are reproduced down to the last detail of the real thing.


  • doubleonothingdoubleonothing Los Angeles Moderator
    edited June 2011 Posts: 864

    I actually own a couple of books on Nazi uniforms...




    Now, that's...interesting. I'm assuming you don't keep these on the coffee table.

    One cannot deny that design the Third Reich used in their propaganda, their films, their uniform design and insignia, including the swastika, were extremely powerful and provocative and were very deliberately used to elicit an emotional response. Design was certainly an element in the seduction of the German people, so it is unsurprising that you have an appreciation for them, because this is what they were designed for. However, for many people, it is difficult to separate the design and the iconography from the atrocity.

    Also, whilst these uniforms were powerful pieces of design, the soldiers and officers (notice these words don't require capitalisation) were not necessarily issued with the most effective and practical uniforms for the task. I'm sure whilst they were freezing to death in Stalingrad due to lack of cold weather gear, they were so happy that their uniforms at least looked good.

    On an aside, Hugo Boss was responsible for the manufacture of the Nazi's uniforms, although not for their design, but you probably knew that.






  • Posts: 7,587
    The best thing I liked about the Nazis was that they lost the war. May folks in occupied nations lost family and friends. So I have little positive to say about them.
    However if anybody feels that they should have ädmiration for those racists, you are welcome to do so. :-S
  • doubleonothingdoubleonothing Los Angeles Moderator
    Posts: 864
    I have nothing good to say about them. I'm from Romany descent and many of my mother's side of the family were killed in concentration camps. So, you can be assured I have no love for them.

    However, their use of design and its psychological effects would make interesting study. Never before has an advertising campaign been so successful. After all, it must have been pretty darn effective if it elected a man like Hitler and to this day has the likes of J7wild enthralled by their uniforms and technology.
  • j7wildj7wild Suspended
    Posts: 823
    enthralled by their uniforms and technology.
    much of that technology they discovered and invented you are using every day!!

  • doubleonothingdoubleonothing Los Angeles Moderator
    Posts: 864
    enthralled by their uniforms and technology.
    much of that technology they discovered and invented you are using every day!!

    Yes, I will concede that they were responsible for many technological advancements that we continue to use today to make our lives better. However, the same people that gave us these advancements also exterminated millions of innocent people. I would always bear that in mind when talking about the Nazis and what they gave to the world. It is difficult to hear someone so enthusiastically sing their praises without a degree of these atrocities being attached to that praise, whatever your intent.



  • St_GeorgeSt_George Shuttling Drax's lovelies to the space doughnut - happy 40th, MR!Moderator
    edited June 2011 Posts: 1,699
    Let's not forget too that the Nazis' war effort on the Western Front was massively hindered by the losses they took on the Eastern Front against the Russians. The casualties on both sides were enormous.

    All three of the war's major allies then, the UK, the USA and Russia, deserve praise for their sacrifices (what did the UK sacrifice? Well, for right or wrong its empire and economic standing in the world) to defeat Nazism and Imperial Japan.

    And that's not conveniently to forget that Russia itself, ironically, was in the vice-like grip of Stalinism either...
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ignoring the evils they wrought and the moral rights and wrongs for a minute, you have to admit what the Nazis and Hitler himself did were pretty impressive.

    It took the worlds 3 major powers - USA, Russia and, at that time Britain - to stop them from conquering the world from Dublin to Vladivostok and had Hitler not overstretched himself on the eastern front or foolishly (militarily) diverted so many men and resources to the extermination of the jews its highly likely he would have taken Britain, done a deal with the yanks and then consolidated before having a proper crack at Russia.

    As for Hitler himself to go from practically being a tramp in his Vienna days to probably the most famous person in history after Jesus and within an ace of presiding over half of the world takes someone of formidable determination and willpower and it has to be stated that he is probably the greatest orator ever seen to be able to force an entire nation to follow him on such an insane path of destruction.

    That said at the end of the day he was a bit of a c***.
  • edited June 2011 Posts: 886

    As for Hitler himself to go from practically being a tramp in his Vienna days to probably the most famous person in history after Jesus and within an ace of presiding over half of the world takes someone of formidable determination and willpower and it has to be stated that he is probably the greatest orator ever seen to be able to force an entire nation to follow him on such an insane path of destruction.
    Richly put. It makes you wonder how more effective he would have been had he not gone to the dark side.


    That said at the end of the day he was a bit of a c***.
    Even in sarcasm, THAT is the biggest understatement of them all.
    Hope that never makes it way to being above the Auschwitz entry gate.



  • DB5DB5
    Posts: 408
    I'm Jewish and three of my cousins were murdered by those bastards, one of them a two year old girl. If ever there was a war involving GOOD against EVIL it was World War II. A few years ago I met another one of my cousins for the first time, a veteran of The Battle of the Bulge. He was in his 80's at the time, I told him what an honor it was to meet him. He was very moved, I don't think any other relative had ever acknowledged his service as much as I had. Let's honor the Allies who defeated these thugs. And if you get the opportunity to meet a WWII vet, say thanks!
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