EoN sells up - Amazon MGM to produce 007 going forwards (Steven Knight to Write)

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  • edited September 22 Posts: 5,962
    A lot of great points here by a lot of people who know more about these things than I, and they do help to make me feel better about things. I never meant to paint EON as "the little guys", and I also am thrilled (as would Cubby be I'm sure) that they made away with their enormous sums of money. And it's cool to read that they still retain half of the franchise, I just wish they were still in creative control.
    But what people are saying about their time coming to an end inevitably anyways also rings true. For reasons outside of Bond, I still do feel ethically opposed to Bezos and Amazon, and I agree that their being in creative control also doesn't feel like it bodes well for Bond long term (despite the great creative team on board for this outing), time will tell about that.

    I get that completely. Again, for what it's worth, it's often the case that heads of studios or big businesses have been abhorrent people (worse than Bezos in many ways). MGM Amazon is a big company with many different people involved, and the success of this film will depend on them and not Jeff Bezos (you have figures like Courtenay Valenti - the Head of Film - who has a prior relationship with Broccoli and the Bond series to the point the MSJ article claimed she was called the "Barbara Broccoli whisperer". From what I understand she's a major reason why we have the producers we do and is a key part in this transition).

    The long term for Bond is what'll be interesting. Without EON we've lost long term custodians who have a deeper obligation to (and understanding of) this franchise/character, and that is genuinely a shame. It'll depend on the individuals who from here on are given the responsibility of making these films.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 22 Posts: 19,137
    Mallory wrote: »
    On the episode of James Bond & Friends (run by this forum’s sister site MI6 HQ) when the acquisition was announced, they remarked something regarding Gregg that had happened previously, but they never elaborated on it further.

    Yeah that was odd. I can't remember how they phrased it, but it may have been because he took charge of the snow chase sequence in Spectre and there was a very bad accident on that set which ended the career of Terry Madden, who had worked on every Bond film since at least FYEO.
  • Posts: 2,369
    mtm wrote: »
    Mallory wrote: »
    On the episode of James Bond & Friends (run by this forum’s sister site MI6 HQ) when the acquisition was announced, they remarked something regarding Gregg that had happened previously, but they never elaborated on it further.

    Yeah that was odd. I can't remember how they phrased it, but it may have been because he took charge of the snow chase sequence in Spectre and there was a very bad accident on that set which ended the career of Terry Madden, who had worked on every Bond film since at least FYEO.

    I think that may have been it too, but he did work on NTTD and even in 2022, when interviewed, MGW was saying that Gregg would continue to be involved.

    I imagine as part of the $1bn buy out, Gregg gets his share. Maybe he decided at his age (I think late 30's) he could basically cash out as well and do what he wanted free of the baggage of the family business.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,684
    Wasn't / isn't he big into music production?
  • I suppose my fears aren’t with what Amazon are doing in the short term - but more so what their plans are for the long term. One of the biggest issues that I have with Disney’s handling of franchises like Marvel and Star Wars is how diluted both of those brands have become due to the endless quantity of content churned out for their streaming platform. I don’t want to see that happen to Bond.
  • edited September 22 Posts: 5,962
    I actually didn't realise before looking it up just now how many of the Broccoli/Wilson family have been involved in Bond over the years. There's even a Tony and Tina Broccoli out there (Barbara Broccoli's direct siblings) who are still producers, but only worked in minor producing roles for Bond in the late 80s (and one instance during SP). You've got David Wilson who worked with EON for a while, but now seems to be a tech startup investor. Barbara's daughter had her own film career/released her own short in 2018, but seemingly never wanted to work on Bond. Gregg seemed to be the only one left.

    Honestly, it's a massive ask to dedicate your career, and basically your life, to a single franchise out of family obligation. And not everyone is a natural creative or able to navigate the business side of these things (to MGW and BB's credit they were adept at both these things).
    I suppose my fears aren’t with what Amazon are doing in the short term - but more so what their plans are for the long term. One of the biggest issues that I have with Disney’s handling of franchises like Marvel and Star Wars is how diluted both of those brands have become due to the endless quantity of content churned out for their streaming platform. I don’t want to see that happen to Bond.

    I suppose it's encouraging that individuals are around at Amazon who seem to have some understanding of Bond and what working on these movies entails (and have even been involved in the more recent movies). Perhaps it means there's something to pass down, even if it's not in a family line.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited September 22 Posts: 6,973
    Most family businesses fall apart or cash out at the third generation (cousins, not siblings). That's what happened, although we don't completely know why.
  • edited September 22 Posts: 5,962
    echo wrote: »
    Most family businesses fall apart or cash out at the third generation (cousins, not siblings). That's what happened, although we don't completely know why.

    My suspicion is Cubby caught a second wave with Michael and Barbara. Not only was MGW a former lawyer and had a good business/practical sense (which incidentally was seemingly very useful wrapping up a lot of issues with Bond further down the line), but he was committed to the creative side as well, doing jobs in producing and scriptwriting for Bond from his early 30s/as a young man onwards. I've heard BB was simply a very determined, creative individual anyway, and it came out early on even when she was just an assistant on these films. She was only in her mid 30s by GE so you had a good mixture of the older, more seasoned MGW with the younger BB. They may have even simply gotten along/have been close when working together for whatever reason. I can easily imagine that generational gap wouldn't have been filled with perhaps Tony and Tina (maybe anyway, obviously none of us know these people). I can easily imagine Cubby eyeing out each family member to see who was best to inherit this franchise (and honestly, if he'd had a situation like the one with Amazon I don't know if he'd come out better).

    I think BB and MGW just never had that second wave. Again, understandable. Even if it's in your family it's not always seen as a duty or a labour of love. If anything having a second generation at EON was very lucky. Hard job, and often thankless and something which requires a lot of sacrifice (and that's not a bad thing necessarily - I honestly think a big part of having long term Bond actors comes from having producers who are also there long term. There's a responsibility that comes with it).
  • edited September 22 Posts: 2,675
    007HallY wrote: »

    I suppose it's encouraging that individuals are around at Amazon who seem to have some understanding of Bond and what working on these movies entails (and have even been involved in the more recent movies). Perhaps it means there's something to pass down, even if it's not in a family line.

    It’s encouraging yeah, but also as equally nerve racking knowing that there are others at Amazon who have little to no understanding of Bond and the films. Wasn’t it reported that some Amazon executive stated that they don’t think James Bond is heroic? I guess an easier way of conveying how I feel would be to say that I have faith in Villenevue, Pascal, and Heyman but I don’t faith in the people above them to keep making healthy and creative decisions - only time will tell though.
  • edited September 22 Posts: 5,962
    007HallY wrote: »

    I suppose it's encouraging that individuals are around at Amazon who seem to have some understanding of Bond and what working on these movies entails (and have even been involved in the more recent movies). Perhaps it means there's something to pass down, even if it's not in a family line.

    It’s encouraging yeah, but also as equally nerve racking knowing that there are others at Amazon who have little to no understanding of Bond and the films. Wasn’t it reported that some Amazon executive stated that they don’t think James Bond is heroic? I guess an easier way of conveying how I feel would be to say that I have faith in Villenevue, Pascal, and Heyman but I don’t faith in the people above them to keep making healthy and creative decisions - only time will tell though.

    I suppose it's worth saying Cubby and Harry thought Bond was an 'anti hero' when they took over and said this publicly. Honestly, I think they got certain things wrong with DN with that mentality. It took time and even a second generation to cement any sort of 'values' with Bond, and these are the things any future filmmakers of Bond will be looking at.

    I'll also put it this way: the silent partners above them may well be EON. Not the ones making the creative choices or now the sole owners of the franchise's future, but those expecting 50% of these earnings whatever Amazon come out with. They're not directly involved but these people are still alive and a part of that deal. At least as far as I know.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,973
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »

    I suppose it's encouraging that individuals are around at Amazon who seem to have some understanding of Bond and what working on these movies entails (and have even been involved in the more recent movies). Perhaps it means there's something to pass down, even if it's not in a family line.

    It’s encouraging yeah, but also as equally nerve racking knowing that there are others at Amazon who have little to no understanding of Bond and the films. Wasn’t it reported that some Amazon executive stated that they don’t think James Bond is heroic? I guess an easier way of conveying how I feel would be to say that I have faith in Villenevue, Pascal, and Heyman but I don’t faith in the people above them to keep making healthy and creative decisions - only time will tell though.

    I suppose it's worth saying Cubby and Harry thought Bond was an 'anti hero' when they took over and said this publicly. Honestly, I think they got certain things wrong with DN with that mentality. It took time and even a second generation to cement any sort of 'values' with Bond, and these are the things any future filmmakers of Bond will be looking at.

    I'll also put it this way: the silent partners above them may well be EON. Not the ones making the creative choices or now the sole owners of the franchise's future, but those expecting 50% of these earnings whatever Amazon come out with. They're not directly involved but these people are still alive and a part of that deal. At least as far as I know.

    I think the $1B was for control. Barbara and Michael are now passive partners and have no say, which is what I think Bezos wanted when he acquired MGM in the first place.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,684
    Are they still making a percentage of box office then? If so that's awesome for them.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited September 22 Posts: 6,973
    Yes, I think that was reported, that they still get profits.

    I would guess that, for the billion, there is some sort of anti-disparagement clause, so that Barbara and Michael can't criticize the new Bond films too much, or at all. A forced, if well-paid, retirement. Or golden parachute.
  • edited September 22 Posts: 5,962
    echo wrote: »
    Yes, I think that was reported, that they still get profits.

    I would guess that, for the billion, there is some sort of anti-disparagement clause, so that Barbara and Michael can't criticize the new Bond films too much, or at all. A forced, if well-paid, retirement. Or golden parachute.

    Yes, I think that might be true. Although I think Michael was pretty much retired at this point or cemented about doing so.
    echo wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »

    I suppose it's encouraging that individuals are around at Amazon who seem to have some understanding of Bond and what working on these movies entails (and have even been involved in the more recent movies). Perhaps it means there's something to pass down, even if it's not in a family line.

    It’s encouraging yeah, but also as equally nerve racking knowing that there are others at Amazon who have little to no understanding of Bond and the films. Wasn’t it reported that some Amazon executive stated that they don’t think James Bond is heroic? I guess an easier way of conveying how I feel would be to say that I have faith in Villenevue, Pascal, and Heyman but I don’t faith in the people above them to keep making healthy and creative decisions - only time will tell though.

    I suppose it's worth saying Cubby and Harry thought Bond was an 'anti hero' when they took over and said this publicly. Honestly, I think they got certain things wrong with DN with that mentality. It took time and even a second generation to cement any sort of 'values' with Bond, and these are the things any future filmmakers of Bond will be looking at.

    I'll also put it this way: the silent partners above them may well be EON. Not the ones making the creative choices or now the sole owners of the franchise's future, but those expecting 50% of these earnings whatever Amazon come out with. They're not directly involved but these people are still alive and a part of that deal. At least as far as I know.

    I think the $1B was for control. Barbara and Michael are now passive partners and have no say, which is what I think Bezos wanted when he acquired MGM in the first place.

    As I said, I think the ins and outs of this deal and who are dealing with this specifically isn't a win for anyone, one way or the other. BB and MGW are still alive (ie why would Amazon want to radically change Bond while they're around and have all this PR around them, even if they can't say anything), and even as passive partners there's still a lot of sub points to this deal (which we may well never know).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,137
    echo wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »

    I suppose it's encouraging that individuals are around at Amazon who seem to have some understanding of Bond and what working on these movies entails (and have even been involved in the more recent movies). Perhaps it means there's something to pass down, even if it's not in a family line.

    It’s encouraging yeah, but also as equally nerve racking knowing that there are others at Amazon who have little to no understanding of Bond and the films. Wasn’t it reported that some Amazon executive stated that they don’t think James Bond is heroic? I guess an easier way of conveying how I feel would be to say that I have faith in Villenevue, Pascal, and Heyman but I don’t faith in the people above them to keep making healthy and creative decisions - only time will tell though.

    I suppose it's worth saying Cubby and Harry thought Bond was an 'anti hero' when they took over and said this publicly. Honestly, I think they got certain things wrong with DN with that mentality. It took time and even a second generation to cement any sort of 'values' with Bond, and these are the things any future filmmakers of Bond will be looking at.

    I'll also put it this way: the silent partners above them may well be EON. Not the ones making the creative choices or now the sole owners of the franchise's future, but those expecting 50% of these earnings whatever Amazon come out with. They're not directly involved but these people are still alive and a part of that deal. At least as far as I know.

    I think the $1B was for control. Barbara and Michael are now passive partners and have no say, which is what I think Bezos wanted when he acquired MGM in the first place.

    I think it's that basically: the previous agreement was a weird and mysterious one, which tied MGM and Eon together and gave Eon certainty that they would be the ones producing the Bond films- although back in the late 70s/early 80s there was actually a clause that if Eon didn't begin making a new film within a certain timeframe then UA could get a different production company to make it(!).
    So I think this deal meant that Eon sold up that dibs on being the creative company which got to produce the films which was part of the joint ownership situation, and that meant redrawing the deal. Whether that meant they sold MGM 1% of Bond to give them a controlling stake or something I don't know, or whether that wasn't necessary. It would be fascinating to find out, as it is it seems like the canniest deal in the history of the movies at the moment. They get a cool billion and piles of cash every time there's a new Bond film, in return for selling... nothing at all!
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited 1:38pm Posts: 3,356
    When the Amazon deal broke, there was a piece which said that when Barbara Broccoli announced the news to EON staff, it was delivered 'as if there'd been a death in the family.' If that's true, it suggests that BB and EON themselves did feel as though they'd 'lost.' Obviously, if one side loses, the other side wins - and seeing as Bezos got what he wanted, I'd have to say that, from here, it does look like a win for him. The only consolation is that if Amazon make a great Bond film, we'll win too.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited 3:28am Posts: 7,684
    Venutius wrote: »
    When the Amazon deal broke, there was a piece which said that when Barbara Broccoli announced the news to EON staff, it was delivered 'as if there'd been a death in the family.' If that's true, it suggests that BB and EON themselves did feet as though they'd 'lost.' Obviously, if one side loses, the other side wins - and seeing as Bezos got what he wanted, I'd have to say that, from here, it does look like a win for him. The only consolation is that if Amazon make a great Bond film, we'll win too.

    My best case scenario is the Bond films get access to Amazon's wallet, and that's all the influence they have. But even then, it does seem after reading the comments here that they do have some good movie people behind the scenes. It's been great honestly to read the insights of the extremely knowledgeable people here.
  • Posts: 2,388
    Venutius wrote: »
    When the Amazon deal broke, there was a piece which said that when Barbara Broccoli announced the news to EON staff, it was delivered 'as if there'd been a death in the family.' If that's true, it suggests that BB and EON themselves did feet as though they'd 'lost.' Obviously, if one side loses, the other side wins - and seeing as Bezos got what he wanted, I'd have to say that, from here, it does look like a win for him. The only consolation is that if Amazon make a great Bond film, we'll win too.

    Perhaps the ones who lost were the EON staff ;)
  • Posts: 2,369
    Venutius wrote: »
    When the Amazon deal broke, there was a piece which said that when Barbara Broccoli announced the news to EON staff, it was delivered 'as if there'd been a death in the family.' If that's true, it suggests that BB and EON themselves did feet as though they'd 'lost.' Obviously, if one side loses, the other side wins - and seeing as Bezos got what he wanted, I'd have to say that, from here, it does look like a win for him. The only consolation is that if Amazon make a great Bond film, we'll win too.

    Perhaps the ones who lost were the EON staff ;)

    Not to retread well discussed ground, but I do believe there are a number of reasons that have all contributed (not equally) to the buyout by Amazon:

    - MGM wanting to retire and Barbara either wanting to move on, or not find a producing partner outside of the family (clearly, they didnt think Gregg was up to the task of taking over from MGW, or perhaps he didnt want to. All public comments suggest the former though - he was being placed to take over, but when push came to shove, they didnt want to do it for whatever reason).
    - Being at a creative impass following NTTD and killing off James Bond, and struggling to find a way forward. When BB said she couldnt imagine anyone other than DC being Bond... a part of me thinks thats not just marketing guff but a genuine thought that has impacted the ability to move on.
    - Failing to agree with Amazon a way forward, given their desire to exploit everything they have for Prime content.
    - A shift in the power dynamics with MGM. Previously EoN held the cards - MGM needed Bond to support the wider studio. Amazon is in no such place.
    - A changing cinema landscape (Streaming technology has had a huge impact, and Covid accelerated that).

    All those things combined, when you're offered a billion dollars to move on and still retain a stake in any future profits (lets hope there are some).....
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,137
    I feel like they had more or less decided, before NTTD -possibly quite a long time before NTTD- that they were moving on, so I'm not sure the creative impasse was a huge driver in the end. I might be wrong though.
  • Posts: 2,675
    Mallory wrote: »
    - Being at a creative impass following NTTD and killing off James Bond, and struggling to find a way forward. When BB said she couldnt imagine anyone other than DC being Bond... a part of me thinks thats not just marketing guff but a genuine thought that has impacted the ability to move on.

    I think this is a huge part of it really. The Craig era was incredibly successful both critically and financially - the chances of replicating that success was pretty slim. It’s just such a shame that BB lost sight of the fact that Bond is supposed to be bigger than the actor playing him and not the other way around. Not to appear snarky or crass but if she truly couldn’t move on without DC, then perhaps it was for the best making her step aside as it was clearly affecting her ability to make these films and get them out in a timely manner.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,626
    mtm wrote: »
    I feel like they had more or less decided, before NTTD -possibly quite a long time before NTTD- that they were moving on, so I'm not sure the creative impasse was a huge driver in the end. I might be wrong though.

    I tend to agree; NTTD was not only destined to be Craig’s swan song , but also EoN’s.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited 10:33am Posts: 19,137
    Yeah these sorts of things often take a lot of thought and a long time to turn around; especially when it comes to billion dollar deals. Maybe it really did all happen in a year or two, but as I said above, there is talk out there that they started looking to sell 007 on after Spectre- and let's not forget that Spectre was an ending to both Craig's run and James Bond's fictional employment too.

    It's been 40 years since Wilson first acted as producer on a Bond film; 36 years since Broccoli was first an associate producer on one- the idea that they somehow lost sight of what Bond feels a bit silly when they'd spent their entire working lives on it and knew and cared about it more than anyone. The idea that they'd, frankly, thought they'd done enough seems much more likely to me.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,973
    Not to mention that dealing with the on-and-off financial woes of MGM/UA for decades had to be exhausting, like a tenant never being able to make rent...projects being shelved and delayed...only to have those woes supplanted by the outsize influence of a pushy billionaire.

    I might give up in this scenario, too. Particularly for a billion dollars.
  • Posts: 2,388
    James Bond is too big for a family business. They've been struggling to release films lately.
  • edited 10:42am Posts: 5,962
    It would make sense timeline wise if they had an idea they were going to pass Bond onto someone else by NTTD. Amazon acquired MGM in 2022 (with the deal effectively being negotiated in mid to late 2021). If anything that may well have delayed Wilson's retirement and the decision to pass Bond on with all the creative differences.

    Re-reading the WSJ article is quite interesting with that in mind. Certain phrases jump out a bit more. Stuff like:

    "The two sides are at an impasse: Amazon needs Broccoli to furnish them with ideas for a new Bond movie, but Broccoli doesn’t want to make a new Bond movie with Amazon."

    Needing Broccoli to 'furnish' them with ideas isn't the same as EON or Broccoli actually making this Bond movie. At least it's a strange way of saying it. The quote that Amazon "isn't a good home for Bond" also always stuck out to me (if anything EON is Bond's home in this scenario, unless of course that was to change in some way).

    It may well have been a case where EON were not going to be taking a front role in Bond 26, but were still connected at this point.
    James Bond is too big for a family business. They've been struggling to release films lately.

    I wouldn't say that. If anything EON have weathered storms a lot of film companies wouldn't be able to (ie. various issues with MGM over the years that resulted in delays with GE and SF, Danny Boyle having a hissy fit and effectively having to redo NTTD, which was further delayed by Covid etc.)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited 10:48am Posts: 19,137
    The WSJ article is interesting as it was presumably long out of date by the time it was published -or possibly inaccurate-, as it was published in late December; but London Operations LLC, the new holding company which owns and operates all the trademarks and rights to 007 (taking over from Danjaq) was formed over a month before in early November (according to the Delaware LLC lookup service), so the deal was obviously nearing its latter stages by then.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,626
    I find it hard to believe that Amazon would need
    “ Broccoli to furnish them with ideas for a new Bond”.
  • edited 11:14am Posts: 5,962
    talos7 wrote: »
    I find it hard to believe that Amazon would need
    “ Broccoli to furnish them with ideas for a new Bond”.

    For James Bond? Oh yes. You have to remember Broccoli's spent her whole life thinking about this character and making these films. And seemingly the best they could come up with was to make the villain an Elon Musk type (which Broccoli said she'd already done in 1997). Subsequently they seem to have gotten top line talent in, with of course Pascal having had some involvement with the franchise. So yes, I think they were keen to have someone there who understood Bond. That and Broccoli/EON have leverage being the majority owners of the franchise, so at this point they couldn't really get rid of them or make a Bond film without them.

    I can easily imagine an original plan where EON were there in more of an advisory position (think EON consulting for the new First Light game) with the intention of passing Bond creatively onto producers at Amazon in the way they eventually did. Obviously there were too many creative disputes, but it's interesting that Amazon have gone the route they have done subsequently.
    mtm wrote: »
    The WSJ article is interesting as it was presumably long out of date by the time it was published -or possibly inaccurate-, as it was published in late December; but London Operations LLC, the new holding company which owns and operates all the trademarks and rights to 007 (taking over from Danjaq) was formed over a month before in early November (according to the Delaware LLC lookup service), so the deal was obviously nearing its latter stages by then.

    I can imagine a book about all this coming out in 10 years or so. There's a lot to the subject.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 19,137
    007HallY wrote: »

    I can easily imagine an original plan where EON were there in more of an advisory position (think EON consulting for the new First Light game) with the intention of passing Bond creatively onto producers at Amazon in the way they eventually did. Obviously there were too many creative disputes, but it's interesting that Amazon have gone the route they have done subsequently.

    That's a really interesting thought, yeah; that may well have been the situation that WSJ was reporting on without knowing it.

    And as has been commented on before, there's even something about Heyman and Pascal which have the whiff of being Broccoli-approved, or suggested, appointees. And that may well have smoothed the troubles the WSJ article reported on.
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