Quick Big Mi6 Fleming Novel Ranking

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Comments

  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,758
    Okay folks, thank you for your patience.

    I have finished counting all our rankings, 17 participants have submitted their rankings and they’re all valid, so we’re good to go.

    As per usual we start with our last place finish, at number 14, we have:

    THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN

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    With three last places, five penultimate places and seven more bottom 4’s TMWTGG was bound to finish near the bottom.

    Only two members seem to appreciate it more than others: TMWTGG’s best ratings were one 7th and one 8th spot.

    In total TMWTGG collected 52 points.
  • Posts: 6,727
    And we're off. Not surprised at this spot forTMWTGG, as its generally considered one of Flemings weakest, but I had it at 8, always found it an enjoyable read! Liked Scaramanga as a villain in both the novel and the film!
  • Yup. This was my last place novel. A disappointingly slim novel that completely glosses over the potentially interesting brainwashing of Bond, has few thrills, another cartoon cutout of a gangster as a villain, and hardly even offers much of the scenic pleasures of a travelogue. Obviously Fleming the writer can’t take all the blame here because Fleming the man died before it could be properly finished, and indeed there are still some highlights here that give a glimpse into what this novel might have become if he had more time and energy to polish it. The assassination plot opening is an instantly captivating hook, the dreamy brothel in Jamaica is the most atmospheric and vividly drawn locale in the novel, and the closing lines of the book are as good of a farewell as you could hope for.
  • Posts: 2,747
    Makes sense. It's actually got a lot of great stuff that I enjoy reading, but overall it's never gelled together as well as it should do for me. Understandable given the circumstances/the fact that it would have been an early draft in an ideal world.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    edited August 2022 Posts: 2,161
    I had it 7th, I really enjoy it. Sure, it feels rushed and incomplete, like we're missing a good third, but what is there is mainly superb: the insane intro in London, Bond's initial confrontation with Scaramanga, Bond's conversations with Goodnight (aside from Scaramanga's origin story, the is the only bit of text that makes it into the film), the showdown in the swamp, and a resolution to Fleming's Bond.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,448
    I like this novel; it's an odd one, but vastly more interesting than its bastardization of an adaptation. It has a totally deranged villain and a tense climax. I ranked it at nummer 12 because the competition is strong.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,382
    Even though, it's my lowest ranked novel, I still enjoy and prefer it than the movie. 😅
  • I may be the outlier in that I would probably have ranked it higher had it borne more similarities to the film! At the very least, Scaramanga himself is far superior in the movie.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    Posts: 2,161
    I like both Scaramangas, probably about equally, but they’re definitely not the same character.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2022 Posts: 3,382
    Scaramanga was so much better in the film, and definitely an improvement, Christopher Lee was really great in the role, I prefer him in the film.

    But, I'm talking about the whole story, plot and Mary Goodnight (who's competent in the book turned bimbo and dumb in the film!)

    But outside, or with an exception of Scaramanga character (who's better in the film), I think the rest of the book's much better than the film, even the locations, prefer Jamaica to Thailand or Hong Kong.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,758
    Personally I have always had a soft spot for TMWTGG, the movie, while TMWTGG, the novel, ranks penultimate for me.

    I also prefer the elegant Scaramanga of the film over the brutish one from the book. Still though, I think it’s a fairly okay read nonetheless.
  • Posts: 12,242
    I much prefer film Scaramanga as well. Brutish, as @GoldenGun describes him, tends to not be my preferred kind of villain in stories. I think the book is good but definitely one of Fleming's weaker ones. While the film isn't anywhere near my favorites, I do get more enjoyment out of it, I must admit.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,448
    At least the plot of the novel makes sense. The film is the opposite of that.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I like this novel; it's an odd one, but vastly more interesting than its bastardization of an adaptation. It has a totally deranged villain and a tense climax. I ranked it at nummer 12 because the competition is strong.

    Same here, except for one thing: I really like the film as well.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,382
    But let's admit Mary Goodnight was so much better in the novel 😅
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    But let's admit Mary Goodnight was so much better in the novel 😅

    I don t know about that. I love both versions.
  • goldenswissroyalegoldenswissroyale Switzerland
    Posts: 4,378
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    At least the plot of the novel makes sense. The film is the opposite of that.

    Does it make sense? It feels very unbelievable to me that Scaramanga hires Bond and even Leiter not realizing who they are. Scaramanga in the book is described like someone with a lot influence but isn't able to have workers around him whom he can trust and it almost seems like he has these business partners but noone else around him. Odd...

    Nevertheless, I like the novel a lot: it is a very easy and quick read with a perfect beginning. The first chapter is my favourite opening of all the Fleming novels.
    I ranked it as #11.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    Posts: 2,161
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    But let's admit Mary Goodnight was so much better in the novel 😅

    I don t know about that. I love both versions.

    Me too, nothing to “admit”.
  • edited August 2022 Posts: 2,747
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    At least the plot of the novel makes sense. The film is the opposite of that.

    Does it make sense? It feels very unbelievable to me that Scaramanga hires Bond and even Leiter not realizing who they are. Scaramanga in the book is described like someone with a lot influence but isn't able to have workers around him whom he can trust and it almost seems like he has these business partners but noone else around him. Odd...

    To play Devil's advocate, there is that underlying idea that Scaramanga is gay and has some sort of attraction to Bond. Admittedly it's still rather contrived, but arguably no more so than it was in the Goldfinger novel when the titular character randomly accepted Bond's offer to work for him.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,448
    007HallY wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    At least the plot of the novel makes sense. The film is the opposite of that.

    Does it make sense? It feels very unbelievable to me that Scaramanga hires Bond and even Leiter not realizing who they are. Scaramanga in the book is described like someone with a lot influence but isn't able to have workers around him whom he can trust and it almost seems like he has these business partners but noone else around him. Odd...

    To play Devil's advocate, there is that underlying idea that Scaramanga is gay and has some sort of attraction to Bond. Admittedly it's still rather contrived, but arguably no more so than it was in the Goldfinger novel when the titular character randomly accepted Bond's offer to work for him.

    I too see him as both reckless and somewhat infatuated with Bond.

    The problem I have with the movie Scaramanga is that he suddenly had a giant power plant built on his little island. The film would have been so much better without him taking an interest in that. Just Bond vs. Scaramanga, nothing more. Or something closer to the book.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,382
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    At least the plot of the novel makes sense. The film is the opposite of that.

    Does it make sense? It feels very unbelievable to me that Scaramanga hires Bond and even Leiter not realizing who they are. Scaramanga in the book is described like someone with a lot influence but isn't able to have workers around him whom he can trust and it almost seems like he has these business partners but noone else around him. Odd...

    To play Devil's advocate, there is that underlying idea that Scaramanga is gay and has some sort of attraction to Bond. Admittedly it's still rather contrived, but arguably no more so than it was in the Goldfinger novel when the titular character randomly accepted Bond's offer to work for him.

    I too see him as both reckless and somewhat infatuated with Bond.

    The problem I have with the movie Scaramanga is that he suddenly had a giant power plant built on his little island. The film would have been so much better without him taking an interest in that. Just Bond vs. Scaramanga, nothing more. Or something closer to the book.

    True, that Solex Agitator thing just didn't make sense to me, and turned things complicated and somewhat convoluted.
    It could do without that either.

    I really liked the plot in the book that it's more grounded, typical like Licence To Kill.

    I really liked the grounded tone in the book more, the film had so many things that didn't make sense to me and a bit off (The third nipple thing, the AMC Hornet chase with JW Pepper, the car with a plane wing, the Solex Agitator).

    I wished the film relied on the grounded ness of the book more, but still keeping the Scaramanga as he was in the film.
  • Posts: 2,747
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    At least the plot of the novel makes sense. The film is the opposite of that.

    Does it make sense? It feels very unbelievable to me that Scaramanga hires Bond and even Leiter not realizing who they are. Scaramanga in the book is described like someone with a lot influence but isn't able to have workers around him whom he can trust and it almost seems like he has these business partners but noone else around him. Odd...

    To play Devil's advocate, there is that underlying idea that Scaramanga is gay and has some sort of attraction to Bond. Admittedly it's still rather contrived, but arguably no more so than it was in the Goldfinger novel when the titular character randomly accepted Bond's offer to work for him.

    I too see him as both reckless and somewhat infatuated with Bond.

    The problem I have with the movie Scaramanga is that he suddenly had a giant power plant built on his little island. The film would have been so much better without him taking an interest in that. Just Bond vs. Scaramanga, nothing more. Or something closer to the book.

    I agree. I suppose the scriptwriters wanted some sort of McGuffin to more effectively move the plot along, hence why the Solex is there. Perhaps another aspect of it is the idea that the stakes aren't exactly high in the novel, so by referencing the energy crisis at the time the film would in theory pack more of a punch in this regard. It's not strictly speaking necessary, however, and the film already had some interesting ideas they could have played around with. Doesn't help that Scaramanga himself seems to admit in the film that he has a limited knowledge of science and seems to be using it for his weird laser thingy.

    TMWTGG is a weird film. The idea of an assassin obsessed with killing Bond had so much potential. I do hope they revisit the concept someday in a future film in some form.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,448
    Yes, that's it. Bond vs Scaramanga could have been written as a tense thriller. Not every film demands that Bond saves the world. But, and this is probably controversial, if you send Bond and another assassin in the arena for the Bond equivalent of The Most Dangerous Game, you have to be prepared to go dark. So none of those karate shenanigans with Hip's nieces, no stupid blonde's bottom threatening to solar-fry Bond, no loop whistle (sorry, John), and no JW shouting up every scene he is in. Comedy in the Bonds is like salt: a little can improve the taste, a lot can ruin it. In the case of TMWTGG, the comedy is all over the place, it is too much, and it runs the film into the ground. A potentially cool conflict was rendered at the mercy of silly jokes. The novel, at least, doesn't have to rely on undercooked comedy. I can handle most of the silly stuff in DAF and LALD, but TMWTGG gets crushed under its weight.
  • edited August 2022 Posts: 2,747
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Yes, that's it. Bond vs Scaramanga could have been written as a tense thriller. Not every film demands that Bond saves the world. But, and this is probably controversial, if you send Bond and another assassin in the arena for the Bond equivalent of The Most Dangerous Game, you have to be prepared to go dark. So none of those karate shenanigans with Hip's nieces, no stupid blonde's bottom threatening to solar-fry Bond, no loop whistle (sorry, John), and no JW shouting up every scene he is in. Comedy in the Bonds is like salt: a little can improve the taste, a lot can ruin it. In the case of TMWTGG, the comedy is all over the place, it is too much, and it runs the film into the ground. A potentially cool conflict was rendered at the mercy of silly jokes. The novel, at least, doesn't have to rely on undercooked comedy. I can handle most of the silly stuff in DAF and LALD, but TMWTGG gets crushed under its weight.

    I get what you mean. In an ideal world TMWTGG would have been adapted as more of a FRWL style cat and mouse story. Any McGuffins or Solexes would have been a plot device for Scaramanga to lure Bond to that final showdown where he'd finally kill 'the world's greatest spy'. Certainly all the ingredients were there for a great little Bond adventure - perhaps a bit more low key (although the early 70s Bond films pre TSWLM were more key anyway) but something much less flippant, comical and throwaway than what we got.

    Going back to the novel, I suspect at that time something more faithful to the source material wasn't going to be put onto film (putting aside the brainwashing subplot etc.) There's some genuinely great stuff in there though. The part, for instance, where Bond confronts the dying Scaramanga and is shot with the poison bullet is one of the great Fleming passages for me. I'd love to at least see that put onto screen - Bond being ordered to kill the main villain, perhaps hesitating or failing to do so throughout the story, and finally he lets his guard down and is nearly killed for his hesitancy.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,448
    Can we also talk about what may very well be one of the coolest opening "scenes" never adapted for the movies? A brainwashed Bond--and yes, that I can easily go with--trying to kill M, who is alert enough to drop that shield faster than Bond can get to him. In capable screenwriter hands, this could play out so cool! Fleming was on to something there.
  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    Posts: 2,161
    That whole book needs to be readapted.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,050
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Yes, that's it. Bond vs Scaramanga could have been written as a tense thriller. Not every film demands that Bond saves the world. But, and this is probably controversial, if you send Bond and another assassin in the arena for the Bond equivalent of The Most Dangerous Game, you have to be prepared to go dark. So none of those karate shenanigans with Hip's nieces, no stupid blonde's bottom threatening to solar-fry Bond, no loop whistle (sorry, John), and no JW shouting up every scene he is in. Comedy in the Bonds is like salt: a little can improve the taste, a lot can ruin it. In the case of TMWTGG, the comedy is all over the place, it is too much, and it runs the film into the ground. A potentially cool conflict was rendered at the mercy of silly jokes. The novel, at least, doesn't have to rely on undercooked comedy. I can handle most of the silly stuff in DAF and LALD, but TMWTGG gets crushed under its weight.

    I blame Richard Maibaum for the Solex, he can’t do his trademark criticizing others for his ideas this time. I blame both Guy Hamilton and Tom Mackiewicz for making everything too silly in TMWTGG. Too many people who were working on the series too long without being fresh.
  • edited August 2022 Posts: 2,747
    The opening certainly feels rather cinematic compared to Fleming's previous novels. I suspect the films had an impact. It would certainly explain (this is the sense I got when I last read it so take this with a grain of salt) Bond's more relaxed, rather humorous depiction in the later sections of the novel, despite the context.

    I hope we get TMWTGG's opening for the screen at some point (from what I understand we nearly did in SF). But it needs that build up ultimately, not just in screenwriting terms, but with the previous film, the actor (it's not an effective way of introducing a new Bond, for instance).
  • Posts: 12,242
    I’m going to out myself and say I wasn’t really crazy about the whole brainwashing thing. Just felt like it was a little forced and off. As for a “proper ending” to Fleming’s Bond, I much prefer YOLT for this. The ambiguity and imagination makes it perfect, as well as the elimination of his archrival.

    TMWTGG I had ranked penultimately, ahead of DAF because it still gripped my attention more. It’s a fine book, but obviously Fleming’s done lots better. The swamp climax and knighthood refusal are the bits I liked / remembered best.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,448
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Yes, that's it. Bond vs Scaramanga could have been written as a tense thriller. Not every film demands that Bond saves the world. But, and this is probably controversial, if you send Bond and another assassin in the arena for the Bond equivalent of The Most Dangerous Game, you have to be prepared to go dark. So none of those karate shenanigans with Hip's nieces, no stupid blonde's bottom threatening to solar-fry Bond, no loop whistle (sorry, John), and no JW shouting up every scene he is in. Comedy in the Bonds is like salt: a little can improve the taste, a lot can ruin it. In the case of TMWTGG, the comedy is all over the place, it is too much, and it runs the film into the ground. A potentially cool conflict was rendered at the mercy of silly jokes. The novel, at least, doesn't have to rely on undercooked comedy. I can handle most of the silly stuff in DAF and LALD, but TMWTGG gets crushed under its weight.

    I blame Richard Maibaum for the Solex, he can’t do his trademark criticizing others for his ideas this time. I blame both Guy Hamilton and Tom Mackiewicz for making everything too silly in TMWTGG. Too many people who were working on the series too long without being fresh.

    These guys had been in the game for far too long. Another problem was that David Picker clearly didn't want another OHMSS. One thing is for sure, the "comedic" trilogy of DAF, LALD, TMWTGG is the very opposite of OHMSS. One wonders how TMWTGG would have been adapted if OHMSS had been a big hit and set a whole new template.
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