NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • Posts: 2,585
    I’ll be seeing the film for a second time today. I need to see a new Bond film two or three times before I can form a real opinion of it. This being said, at the moment it at least stands behind CR and SF in terms of the Craig era. My favourite scene was right at the beginning at the cabin. It was like watching some European indie film. A notable departure from what we’re used to which I loved. Loved how there was a decent amount of French spoken in this scene. Matera was great too in part due to the action but also the character work and it was shot beautifully. I found the last act at the villain’s lair on the dull side until right at the end when Bond was in the pond with Safin. I was very disappointed about the underuse of the poison garden. In the novel, we read about the public entering there to commit suicide and we’re also given wonderful descriptions. I was expecting to see this in the film. I appreciated that they had some decent character movement in the film. I get the impression that here in China, the odd bit was cut out by Chinese censors. They ruined the Alien film from 2017. That said, Bond is no Alien movie in terms of violence and gore.

    I watched Spectre for the third time last night and I enjoyed it more. That said, there are still some scenes in this film I don’t like just like in NTTD. I could talk more about the latter but I won’t at this stage. Looking forward to seeing it again. I had to run out of the cinema to use the bathroom when Safin was talking with Madeline in her office. :) I think it was her office…if I remember correctly.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,477
    100% agree with you here. Although, we couldn’t really have the YOLT plot without TB and OHMSS preceding it IMO; its not the grand villain plot they tend to go for in these films, especially for Craigs final outing. The novel plot as you’ll know is like 10% national issue/embarrassment for Japan, 90% personal vendetta for Bond. Blofeld is just wandering around the garden having lost his mind and checking out ppl who have come in there to die.

    I also find it really hard to put the film in a ranking after only two or three viewings, and especially when I’ve only seen it in theatres. I’m looking forward to watching it at home in the context of the rest of the Bond films to see where it ends up landing.
  • Posts: 526
    Bounine wrote: »
    I’ll be seeing the film for a second time today. I need to see a new Bond film two or three times before I can form a real opinion of it. This being said, at the moment it at least stands behind CR and SF in terms of the Craig era. My favourite scene was right at the beginning at the cabin. It was like watching some European indie film. A notable departure from what we’re used to which I loved. Loved how there was a decent amount of French spoken in this scene. Matera was great too in part due to the action but also the character work and it was shot beautifully. I found the last act at the villain’s lair on the dull side until right at the end when Bond was in the pond with Safin. I was very disappointed about the underuse of the poison garden. In the novel, we read about the public entering there to commit suicide and we’re also given wonderful descriptions. I was expecting to see this in the film. I appreciated that they had some decent character movement in the film. I get the impression that here in China, the odd bit was cut out by Chinese censors. They ruined the Alien film from 2017. That said, Bond is no Alien movie in terms of violence and gore.

    I watched Spectre for the third time last night and I enjoyed it more. That said, there are still some scenes in this film I don’t like just like in NTTD. I could talk more about the latter but I won’t at this stage. Looking forward to seeing it again. I had to run out of the cinema to use the bathroom when Safin was talking with Madeline in her office. :) I think it was her office…if I remember correctly.
    The PTS was the best scene in the movie for me. Especially when the DB5 was getting bombarded. The tension there was palpable. Vesper’s grave. If one had no clue as to what they were watching, the initial cabin scene was like a horror movie. I did enjoy all the PTS besides the Bond and Lea parts. I can’t help it: she just plain bores me in SP and NTTD. To me, Swann is the main plot point of SP and NTTD, which isn’t good. This is Bond, right? James Bond? Main focus of each film (Craig Era): CR-Bond; Qos-Bond; Skyfall-M; SP: Swann/Team mi6; NTTD-Swann & Mathilde.
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 2,585
    Yeah, the cabin scene was like a horror. It didn’t feel like a Bond film which is something I loved. Another thing I didn’t like about NTTD was the comic relief in the scene where the scientist was kidnapped by the cool Spectre agents. This scene could have been fantastic if it wasn’t for the cheesy scientist’s dialogue. It just took me out of the film. He reminded me a bit of Koscov in TLD defection scene except in this film, it felt more natural.

    I was worried about the Nomi character but thankfully she was okay. She also showed respect for Bond towards the end when she let him have his OO number back which was good. Thankfully, we didn’t hear M give her a new number. This would have been cheesy. We would have heard it in the Brosnan era. LOL.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Bounine wrote: »
    I’ll be seeing the film for a second time today. I need to see a new Bond film two or three times before I can form a real opinion of it. This being said, at the moment it at least stands behind CR and SF in terms of the Craig era. My favourite scene was right at the beginning at the cabin. It was like watching some European indie film. A notable departure from what we’re used to which I loved. Loved how there was a decent amount of French spoken in this scene.

    Agreed. If this was any other era, they would speak English with a thick French accent.
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 3,171
    Here is an online roundtable discussion of NTTD from some of the more well established YouTube fans of the franchise, including Zaritsky and Calvin Dyson. I think in a snapshot this sums up the polarising effect NTTD is having.

    All 4 of them don't slate the film, one loves it (including the ending), the other 3 think it is a good film, but they don't like the ending. Again, this is where I stand too, I loved parts of the movie, but just can't stand the ending



  • edited November 2021 Posts: 2,585
    Yeah, I wonder if they went too far with the ending. I have mixed feelings about this. I would have been annoyed with what they did with Felix but seeing the same thing happened to Bond, I didn’t mind. This was a contained, separate story for Craig’s Bond though and prior to the Craig era, there isn’t much continuity anyway. What happened to Bond though does seem out of character for him. I remember in The Moneypenny Diaries, Bond had given up at one point and was ready to die and then he continued to live to save a girl who I think was Penny if I remember correctly. The author isn’t Fleming though. I just hope Bond doesn’t suffer a similar fate in the novels. These are what I really care about. Fleming had planned to do this to Bond at the end of the FRWL novel but then he changed his mind. FRWL was earlier on in the series too though. Funnily enough, it was the first Bond book I read.

    I loved how they used the Fleming quote at the end, “I shall not waste my days in trying to prolong them. I shall use my time.”

    Thanks for posting the video.
  • Posts: 526
    100% agree with you here. Although, we couldn’t really have the YOLT plot without TB and OHMSS preceding it IMO; its not the grand villain plot they tend to go for in these films, especially for Craigs final outing. The novel plot as you’ll know is like 10% national issue/embarrassment for Japan, 90% personal vendetta for Bond. Blofeld is just wandering around the garden having lost his mind and checking out ppl who have come in there to die.

    I also find it really hard to put the film in a ranking after only two or three viewings, and especially when I’ve only seen it in theatres. I’m looking forward to watching it at home in the context of the rest of the Bond films to see where it ends up landing.

    After 3 showings, I have a pretty concrete opinion. 5 at the most. I debated Qos and Skyfall for a long time. Which was #2. Now it is Quantum by miles. I don’t see how NTTD can climb out of 5th place. If the ending had been to my liking, it would have been no. 3 no question. The entire casino shoot’em up felt a little Mooreish to me. And as I’ve stated, it’s like I could feel Brosnan’s spirit in this. Did anyone else feel like the Cuba action was off? I will be able to tell more about it today. 2nd viewing.
  • Posts: 2,585
    100% agree with you here. Although, we couldn’t really have the YOLT plot without TB and OHMSS preceding it IMO; its not the grand villain plot they tend to go for in these films, especially for Craigs final outing. The novel plot as you’ll know is like 10% national issue/embarrassment for Japan, 90% personal vendetta for Bond. Blofeld is just wandering around the garden having lost his mind and checking out ppl who have come in there to die.

    I also find it really hard to put the film in a ranking after only two or three viewings, and especially when I’ve only seen it in theatres. I’m looking forward to watching it at home in the context of the rest of the Bond films to see where it ends up landing.

    After 3 showings, I have a pretty concrete opinion. 5 at the most. I debated Qos and Skyfall for a long time. Which was #2. Now it is Quantum by miles. I don’t see how NTTD can climb out of 5th place. If the ending had been to my liking, it would have been no. 3 no question. The entire casino shoot’em up felt a little Mooreish to me. And as I’ve stated, it’s like I could feel Brosnan’s spirit in this. Did anyone else feel like the Cuba action was off? I will be able to tell more about it today. 2nd viewing.

    I felt like the Cuba action was off. I didn’t post anything about it initially though as I need to see the film again. This would have been a better film without the light hearted tone in some of the action. They should have kept the same tone as CR.

  • edited November 2021 Posts: 3,171
    Bounine wrote: »
    100% agree with you here. Although, we couldn’t really have the YOLT plot without TB and OHMSS preceding it IMO; its not the grand villain plot they tend to go for in these films, especially for Craigs final outing. The novel plot as you’ll know is like 10% national issue/embarrassment for Japan, 90% personal vendetta for Bond. Blofeld is just wandering around the garden having lost his mind and checking out ppl who have come in there to die.

    I also find it really hard to put the film in a ranking after only two or three viewings, and especially when I’ve only seen it in theatres. I’m looking forward to watching it at home in the context of the rest of the Bond films to see where it ends up landing.

    After 3 showings, I have a pretty concrete opinion. 5 at the most. I debated Qos and Skyfall for a long time. Which was #2. Now it is Quantum by miles. I don’t see how NTTD can climb out of 5th place. If the ending had been to my liking, it would have been no. 3 no question. The entire casino shoot’em up felt a little Mooreish to me. And as I’ve stated, it’s like I could feel Brosnan’s spirit in this. Did anyone else feel like the Cuba action was off? I will be able to tell more about it today. 2nd viewing.

    I felt like the Cuba action was off. I didn’t post anything about it initially though as I need to see the film again. This would have been a better film without the light hearted tone in some of the action. They should have kept the same tone as CR.

    Yes I agree. The Cuba scene was slightly off, even though she was a great character. My favourite moments in the entire film are probably the scenes in Jamaica, which I thought were superb. I loved all those moment - Bond taking a shower, staring out to sea, catching fish, and also the nightclub scene with Felix. At this moment during the movie I felt like I was watching the greatest Bond film ever made. Such a shame it went downhill for me after that.
  • FeyadorFeyador Montreal, Canada
    edited November 2021 Posts: 467
    Bond certainly knows it won’t be the cigarettes that ultimately kill him.
    Or the booze, too ...

    ... unlike, perhaps, his creator?

    As I recall from the Lycett biography, ill health made Fleming's last year or so really rather grim ...

    Credit to @revelator for his 2016 thread from which the following Ann Fleming quotation is taken:

    Ian died at 56. His constitution was unequal to the pace and to the burden of to cope with the never-ending demands. No one knew this better than he did. He was an impossible patient. He flatly refused to slow down even to a normal living pace; he wanted “something wonderful” and exciting to happen every day. I suppose it was almost deliberately suicidal.

    Interestingly she regards Fleming as a melancholic and goes on to write about the similarities/differences between Bond and his creator ...

    A thread truly worth perusing for those not aware of it.

    Thank you.

    https://www.mi6community.com/discussion/comment/583055/#Comment_583055
  • Posts: 526
    Bounine wrote: »
    100% agree with you here. Although, we couldn’t really have the YOLT plot without TB and OHMSS preceding it IMO; its not the grand villain plot they tend to go for in these films, especially for Craigs final outing. The novel plot as you’ll know is like 10% national issue/embarrassment for Japan, 90% personal vendetta for Bond. Blofeld is just wandering around the garden having lost his mind and checking out ppl who have come in there to die.

    I also find it really hard to put the film in a ranking after only two or three viewings, and especially when I’ve only seen it in theatres. I’m looking forward to watching it at home in the context of the rest of the Bond films to see where it ends up landing.

    After 3 showings, I have a pretty concrete opinion. 5 at the most. I debated Qos and Skyfall for a long time. Which was #2. Now it is Quantum by miles. I don’t see how NTTD can climb out of 5th place. If the ending had been to my liking, it would have been no. 3 no question. The entire casino shoot’em up felt a little Mooreish to me. And as I’ve stated, it’s like I could feel Brosnan’s spirit in this. Did anyone else feel like the Cuba action was off? I will be able to tell more about it today. 2nd viewing.

    I felt like the Cuba action was off. I didn’t post anything about it initially though as I need to see the film again. This would have been a better film without the light hearted tone in some of the action. They should have kept the same tone as CR.

    Yes I agree. The Cuba scene was slightly off, even though she was a great character. My favourite moments in the entire film are probably the scenes in Jamaica, which I thought were superb. I loved all those moment - Bond taking a shower, staring out to sea, catching fish, and also the nightclub scene with Felix. At this moment during the movie I felt like I was watching the greatest Bond film ever made. Such a shame it went downhill for me after that.

    I hear you my friend. And I feel your pain. Same for me. Never could understand the need to insert comedy bits into life and death shootouts. I mean really, who in the hell would be doing stuff like pouring drinks with bullets swarming at them? It really takes me out of the moment.
  • Posts: 369
    Comedy didn't bother me.

    I think what the last few films have achieved is something akin to the novels Blofeld Trilogy.

    For years, fans have wished that YOLT would have followed OHMSS and that there was some loose continuity between the films. That is in essence what Barbara has done with the last films. Skyfall is basically Goldfinger, Spectre and NTTD are TB/OHMSS/YOLT.

    I myself wished for more than a decade for Bond to die at the end of the next film, and to see the Garden Of Death. Finally they do it. I couldn't be more happy.

    I'm guessing any fans complaining right now, and for the next 3 years, will change their mind once the next film is on and we get a clear view of where they are going next.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,740
    For Bond 26, I truly believe we’re gonna see a totally new take. It won’t be a reboot like Craig’s run and it won’t be a return to the old Cubby formula.

    Traditionalists hoping for “a return to normalcy” are gonna come to the full realization that the James Bond they grew up with as a child is long long gone.

    Imagine a Bond movie where they throw away all the recognizable tropes. For example: No MI6 office. Bond gets his orders from a random contact in every film at a new location and picks up a package of gadgets rather than deal with Q. That’s just the tip of the iceberg.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,454
    First reactions to what? The Wikipedia page?
    EDIT: Ah, nevermind, I see, first reaction to our comments.

    The most critical opinions of NTTD are all coming from people who haven't seen NTTD...

    And a lot of them are coming from new members... just signed up to lambast a film they haven't seen in an online group of Bond fans? Or were you part of the surge that just wanted the leaked soundtrack link? Is it just for attention?

    Bingo. And they foam at the mouth and post volumes.

    So Seve is another one we can just skip over until he has actually seen NTTD. LOL, as he says. Yeah. Next ... B-)
  • Seve wrote: »
    Feyador wrote: »
    It's almost as if the last few films have been set up to flesh-out a set of artificial moral concerns.

    At some point in the last fifteen years Broccoli & Wilson decided to turn the films into "prestige" projects. Was that done primarily to retain the interest of Craig? I don't know; but certainly you don't bring in a collection of people like Fiennes, Mendes, Fukunaga, Deakins, Logan, Bardem, and so many others just to make TSWLM over & over again. They couldn't do so, even if they tried. "Artists", all ... rather than "mere" craftsmen, you might say.

    Perhaps EON was already started down that path, half-heartedly, with the hiring of Dalton and then Judi Dench. Indeed, at least two directors in the Brosnan era were or a moderately auteurist persuasion. So this now dominant tendency towards the "prestige" had been in gestation for a long time.
    IMO this is right on the money

    Except I would prefer the term "Entertainers" rather than "mere craftsman"
    Interesting article, justifying the ending of NTTD and that its closer to Fleming than I first thought. Hmmm...I may have to reconsider NTTD now. Looks like I'll have to give it another go.

    https://crimereads.com/fatalism-james-bond-series/?fbclid=IwAR2yoV7g175zYSS-rUeBY3N2qWgGIZAuLLsJtyHMBimqk4ZJX7WmGARiIpo
    Thanks for sharing

    Did you read the replies as well?

    Nicolás Suszczyk •

    I couldn't possibly disagree more. Ian Fleming's James Bond was someone who had its down moments, but he always craved for life and enjoyment. He enjoys the pleasures of life: has his breakfast prepared in a very unique way, has a special recipe for his Martini, dresses in Sea Island cotton shirts and knitted black ties, thinks of sex as a pleasure, and whenever he's about to die, there's an inner voice in him that appeals to his instinct for survival: "Now he was finished. Now it was the end. Now he would fall flat and slowly fry to death. No! He must drive on, screaming, until his flesh was burned to the bone. (...) Scream, scream, scream! It helps the pain. It tells you you're alive. Go on! Go on! It can't be much longer. This isn't where you are supposed to die. Don't give up! You can't!" (Dr No, 1958). Yes, he contemplates sacrifice in Moonraker, but that doesn't means he wanted to die...

    The Bond we saw in NTTD couldn't be possibly more different to Fleming's Bond or to the cinematic Bond. He would have NEVER commit suicide in the way he did when he had a chance to escape. Goodness, Safin could have tricked him into thinking that was the virus and he could have injected him with tomato soup! Bond's ending in the Fleming's novels is far from cursed. This is how Fleming's final novel, The Man With The Golden Gun, ends: "At the same time, he knew, deep down, that love from Mary Goodnight, or from any other woman, was not enough for him. It would be like taking 'a room with a view'. For James Bond, the same view would always pall." Nothing could be less tragic than that.

    Yes I see that reply, why should it change my mind? This person seems to think because they found one quote that contradicts the others, that happens to support THEIR opinion, that is the only one to be considered and we can dismiss the others. I suppose it's typical of the internet age where people ignore all evidence on something, however strong, unless it supports what they already think, and then they will defend it to the death, however weak and poorly constructed.

    There are plenty other quotes from Fleming to support the fatalism in Bond, and that he felt differently at different times is rather normal no? Especially for someone with a melancholic disposition. Spends time mulling the morality of being a killer, his own probably early mortality, drinks to dull all this, seeks hedonism to escape reality and mundanity/melancholy.

    As has already been said, the Dr. No quote is very specific because Bond is racing to complete a mission. But in Goldfinger, we see him completely accept he is about to die when strapped to the table and even pondering how to make it quicker to save himself pain, assuming someone else from MI:6 will follow and complete the mission. Perhaps Nicolás Suszczyk hasn't read Goldfinger?

    Bond turned his head wearily away. How soon could he manage to die? Was there any way he could hasten death? A friend of his had survived the Gestapo. He had described to Bond how he had tried to commit suicide by holding his breath. By superhuman will-power, after a few minutes without breathing, unconsciousness had come. But, with the blackout of the senses, will and intention had also left the body. At once reason was forgotten. The body's instinct to live manned the pumps and got breath back into the body again. But Bond could try it. There was nothing else to help him through the pain barrier before the blessing of death. For death was the only exit. He knew he could never squeal to Goldfinger and live with himself again—even in the unlikely event that Goldfinger could be bought off with the truth. No, he must stick to his thin story and hope that the others who would now follow him on Goldfinger's trail would have better luck. Who would M choose? Probably 008, the second killer in the small section of three. He was a good man, more careful than Bond. M would know that Goldfinger had killed Bond and he would give 008 licence to kill in return. 258 in Geneva would put him on to the scent that would end with Bond's inquiry about the Entreprises Auric. Yes, fate would catch up with Goldfinger if Bond could only keep his mouth shut. If he gave the least clue away, Goldfinger would escape. That was unthinkable.....

    This was his home, this cocoon of danger he had chosen to live in. And here he would be buried 'in some corner of a foreign blast furnace that is for ever two thousand degrees Centigrade'. God rest ye merry gentlemen of the Secret Service! What should he give himself as an epitaph? What should be his 'famous last words'? That you have no choice about your birth, but you can choose the way you die? Yes, it would look well on a tombstone—not Savoir vivre but Savoir mourir......

    Bond decided it was time to stop talking. It was time to start winding up the mainspring of will-power that must not run down again until he was dead. Bond said politely, 'Then you can go and —— yourself.' He expelled all the breath from his lungs and closed his eyes....

    Bond counted the slowly pounding pulse that utterly possessed his body. It was like the huge panting power plant in the other part of the factory but, in his case, it was slowly decelerating. If only it would slow down quicker. What was this ridiculous will to live that refused to listen to the brain? Who was making the engine run on although the tank was dry of fuel? But he must empty his mind of thought, as well as his body of oxygen. He must become a vacuum, a deep hole of unconsciousness.

    Still the light burned red through his eyelids. Still he could feel the bursting pressure in his temples. Still the slow drum of life beat in his ears.

    A scream tried to force its way through the clamped teeth.

    Die damn you die die damn you die damn you die damn you die damn you die...


    I don't see anything in NTTD out of line with this character, especially as the stakes are a lot higher.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited November 2021 Posts: 4,343
    Yes. On another note, I recently re-read the book and Fleming's Bond would've sacrifice himself in order to save Tracy and their child, if put in a similar extreme situation like in NTTD.
  • All 4 of them don't slate the film, one loves it (including the ending), the other 3 think it is a good film, but they don't like the ending. Again, this is where I stand too, I loved parts of the movie, but just can't stand the ending

    The ending spoils the movie for me too. Whatever emotional weight they put behind it - I still wish they hadn't gone there.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    When Bond puts his jumper around Mathilde, kisses Swann saying I have to finish it... For us... I'll be right back and then goes total berserk mode killing everyone around him - with Zimmer going full Zimmer - while telling M what's right to do shouting FIRE ON MY MARK in order to save the world from oblivion it's just INSANELY cool and arguably the best "hero moment" in the franchise, if not ever.

    NTTD cementifies James Bond as the ultimate action true hero.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,740
    neila83 wrote: »
    Seve wrote: »
    Feyador wrote: »
    It's almost as if the last few films have been set up to flesh-out a set of artificial moral concerns.

    At some point in the last fifteen years Broccoli & Wilson decided to turn the films into "prestige" projects. Was that done primarily to retain the interest of Craig? I don't know; but certainly you don't bring in a collection of people like Fiennes, Mendes, Fukunaga, Deakins, Logan, Bardem, and so many others just to make TSWLM over & over again. They couldn't do so, even if they tried. "Artists", all ... rather than "mere" craftsmen, you might say.

    Perhaps EON was already started down that path, half-heartedly, with the hiring of Dalton and then Judi Dench. Indeed, at least two directors in the Brosnan era were or a moderately auteurist persuasion. So this now dominant tendency towards the "prestige" had been in gestation for a long time.
    IMO this is right on the money

    Except I would prefer the term "Entertainers" rather than "mere craftsman"
    Interesting article, justifying the ending of NTTD and that its closer to Fleming than I first thought. Hmmm...I may have to reconsider NTTD now. Looks like I'll have to give it another go.

    https://crimereads.com/fatalism-james-bond-series/?fbclid=IwAR2yoV7g175zYSS-rUeBY3N2qWgGIZAuLLsJtyHMBimqk4ZJX7WmGARiIpo
    Thanks for sharing

    Did you read the replies as well?

    Nicolás Suszczyk •

    I couldn't possibly disagree more. Ian Fleming's James Bond was someone who had its down moments, but he always craved for life and enjoyment. He enjoys the pleasures of life: has his breakfast prepared in a very unique way, has a special recipe for his Martini, dresses in Sea Island cotton shirts and knitted black ties, thinks of sex as a pleasure, and whenever he's about to die, there's an inner voice in him that appeals to his instinct for survival: "Now he was finished. Now it was the end. Now he would fall flat and slowly fry to death. No! He must drive on, screaming, until his flesh was burned to the bone. (...) Scream, scream, scream! It helps the pain. It tells you you're alive. Go on! Go on! It can't be much longer. This isn't where you are supposed to die. Don't give up! You can't!" (Dr No, 1958). Yes, he contemplates sacrifice in Moonraker, but that doesn't means he wanted to die...

    The Bond we saw in NTTD couldn't be possibly more different to Fleming's Bond or to the cinematic Bond. He would have NEVER commit suicide in the way he did when he had a chance to escape. Goodness, Safin could have tricked him into thinking that was the virus and he could have injected him with tomato soup! Bond's ending in the Fleming's novels is far from cursed. This is how Fleming's final novel, The Man With The Golden Gun, ends: "At the same time, he knew, deep down, that love from Mary Goodnight, or from any other woman, was not enough for him. It would be like taking 'a room with a view'. For James Bond, the same view would always pall." Nothing could be less tragic than that.

    Yes I see that reply, why should it change my mind? This person seems to think because they found one quote that contradicts the others, that happens to support THEIR opinion, that is the only one to be considered and we can dismiss the others. I suppose it's typical of the internet age where people ignore all evidence on something, however strong, unless it supports what they already think, and then they will defend it to the death, however weak and poorly constructed.

    There are plenty other quotes from Fleming to support the fatalism in Bond, and that he felt differently at different times is rather normal no? Especially for someone with a melancholic disposition. Spends time mulling the morality of being a killer, his own probably early mortality, drinks to dull all this, seeks hedonism to escape reality and mundanity/melancholy.

    As has already been said, the Dr. No quote is very specific because Bond is racing to complete a mission. But in Goldfinger, we see him completely accept he is about to die when strapped to the table and even pondering how to make it quicker to save himself pain, assuming someone else from MI:6 will follow and complete the mission. Perhaps Nicolás Suszczyk hasn't read Goldfinger?

    Bond turned his head wearily away. How soon could he manage to die? Was there any way he could hasten death? A friend of his had survived the Gestapo. He had described to Bond how he had tried to commit suicide by holding his breath. By superhuman will-power, after a few minutes without breathing, unconsciousness had come. But, with the blackout of the senses, will and intention had also left the body. At once reason was forgotten. The body's instinct to live manned the pumps and got breath back into the body again. But Bond could try it. There was nothing else to help him through the pain barrier before the blessing of death. For death was the only exit. He knew he could never squeal to Goldfinger and live with himself again—even in the unlikely event that Goldfinger could be bought off with the truth. No, he must stick to his thin story and hope that the others who would now follow him on Goldfinger's trail would have better luck. Who would M choose? Probably 008, the second killer in the small section of three. He was a good man, more careful than Bond. M would know that Goldfinger had killed Bond and he would give 008 licence to kill in return. 258 in Geneva would put him on to the scent that would end with Bond's inquiry about the Entreprises Auric. Yes, fate would catch up with Goldfinger if Bond could only keep his mouth shut. If he gave the least clue away, Goldfinger would escape. That was unthinkable.....

    This was his home, this cocoon of danger he had chosen to live in. And here he would be buried 'in some corner of a foreign blast furnace that is for ever two thousand degrees Centigrade'. God rest ye merry gentlemen of the Secret Service! What should he give himself as an epitaph? What should be his 'famous last words'? That you have no choice about your birth, but you can choose the way you die? Yes, it would look well on a tombstone—not Savoir vivre but Savoir mourir......

    Bond decided it was time to stop talking. It was time to start winding up the mainspring of will-power that must not run down again until he was dead. Bond said politely, 'Then you can go and —— yourself.' He expelled all the breath from his lungs and closed his eyes....

    Bond counted the slowly pounding pulse that utterly possessed his body. It was like the huge panting power plant in the other part of the factory but, in his case, it was slowly decelerating. If only it would slow down quicker. What was this ridiculous will to live that refused to listen to the brain? Who was making the engine run on although the tank was dry of fuel? But he must empty his mind of thought, as well as his body of oxygen. He must become a vacuum, a deep hole of unconsciousness.

    Still the light burned red through his eyelids. Still he could feel the bursting pressure in his temples. Still the slow drum of life beat in his ears.

    A scream tried to force its way through the clamped teeth.

    Die damn you die die damn you die damn you die damn you die damn you die...


    I don't see anything in NTTD out of line with this character, especially as the stakes are a lot higher.

    I guarantee you that if Pierce Brosnan was the star in NTTD that @NS_writings would be singing a VERY different tune.
  • Posts: 2,831
    neila83 wrote: »
    I don't see anything in NTTD out of line with this character, especially as the stakes are a lot higher.

    If death is imminent and absolutely certain, as in that scene from Goldfinger, it's not fatalistic to try avoiding a painful demise by attempting a painless one. Who among us would wait to be sliced in half if they thought there was a quicker way to go? I don't even think that Bond's death in NTTD is fatalistic, since he ultimately chooses to sacrifice himself rather than risk infecting Madeline and Matilde. This might not be clear since there's all the business with the doors and Bond's gunshot wounds, but those are signs of how overdetermined Bond's death is in the film.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    The whole point of the film is that Bond is a man that must spend is time living his life at the fullest, not just existing, as Fleming makes clear in the books. In Jamaica he had nothing to live for, as Nomi points out. Once he finds himself having a family with the woman he loves, to live without them is not even an option for him because that would've meant just existing, living in pain and regret.
    Basically, they found the only right way to justify his ultimate fate.
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 3,171
    neila83 wrote: »
    Still the light burned red through his eyelids. Still he could feel the bursting pressure in his temples. Still the slow drum of life beat in his ears.

    A scream tried to force its way through the clamped teeth.

    Die damn you die die damn you die damn you die damn you die damn you die...[/i]

    I don't see anything in NTTD out of line with this character, especially as the stakes are a lot higher.
    I forgot about that scene in GF too, where Bond attempts suicide. I'm coming round to the way of thinking now that maybe Bond's death is more in line with Fleming.

    I guess my main problem with Bond's death was that I didn't like the way it was done, including the 2 brief scenes afterwards. That's all we get after 25 movies and 60 years.

    What alternative ways could they have killed him off that I would have been satisfied with? I'm not entirely sure. I cannot really think of a fitting way to the end the character, unless it was something adapted straight from Fleming himself. The books gave birth to the screen incarnation, and I think the books should have also gone some way in how the character dies too. To be fair to EON, I guess YOLT is the closest novel to this eventuality, and this is what they adapted for his demise.

  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    edited November 2021 Posts: 573
    I think it's meant to make you feel like that @jetsetwilly ... That Bond is reduced to nothing more than a glass of scotch on a table is really in tune with the cynicism of Bond's life... These men and women are nothing more but numbers in a very long line of numbers. They mean nothing, their heroics being nothing more but an invisible pat on the back that the world will never know.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited November 2021 Posts: 4,343
    Bond suddenly thought, Hell! I’ll never find another girl like this one.
    She’s got everything I’ve ever looked for in a woman. She’s beautiful, in
    bed and out. She’s adventurous, brave, resourceful. She’s exciting always.
    She seems to love me. She’d let me go on with my life. She’s a lone girl, not
    cluttered up with friends, relations, belongings. Above all, she needs me.
    It’ll be someone for me to look after. I’m fed up with all these untidy, casual
    affairs that leave me with a bad conscience. I wouldn’t mind having
    children. I’ve got no social background into which she would or wouldn’t
    fit. We’re two of a pair, really. Why not make it for always?
    Bond found his voice saying those words that he had never said in his
    life before, never expected to say.
    ‘Tracy, I love you. Will you marry me?’
    She turned very pale. She looked at him wonderingly. Her lips trembled.
    ‘You mean that?’
    ‘Yes, I mean it. With all my heart.’


    - OHMSS, Ian Fleming.
  • Posts: 369
    So second reaction (hopefully they are allowed here), having browsed through the iTunes version, my initial feeling remains the same: Bond is not dead. He is not standing exactly in the place the missiles are incoming. He disappears into the flash.

    We do not see the flesh torn from him or his skeleton turning into ashes.

    He just disappears in the explosion.

    James Bond will return.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    James Bond is an X-Men, confirmed.

    No words.
  • zb007zb007 UK
    edited November 2021 Posts: 85
    Imagine a Bond movie where they throw away all the recognizable tropes. For example: No MI6 office. Bond gets his orders from a random contact in every film at a new location and picks up a package of gadgets rather than deal with Q. That’s just the tip of the iceberg.

    Thats not a bond film though is it if you take everything away that makes it just like every other action film
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 49
    There has been more than a little discussion about how you move from the events of NTTD but allow him to live.

    These last couple of days I decided to read "The Man With The Golden Gun." to see how Fleming took the challenge of Bond Wife and Child to the next story.

    I have to say I had forgotten some of the key points but the one that stood out was that he was given EST "Electric Shook Therapy."... thirty times.

    Both of my parents were mental health professionals and I have had a client who had it in the 60's. It may well lift depression but it has a devastating effect on cognition. The idea that James Bond as Fleming ALWAYs describes him had EST is a huge error of choice as a writer and misses a quite wonderful opportunity to take Bond much much further than he had ever done before. Felix and Mary being long time friends would be the perfect choice to bring Bond through to a new place of understanding what had happened to him in those Blofeld years. The Scaramanga plot could have almost been a plot device whilst the author delves into the deep recesses of James Bond psyche.

    Reading Golden Gun led me to two conclusions ;-

    1) The idea that memory loss based on this transition could have been used to take us from 25 to 26 does not fly. The novel does not work and is only rescued by Mary and Felix being there to make Bond work at all.

    2) That to meet a disorientated Bond that we do not know and discover him using a framing devise through Mary Goodnight would be a wonderful way to establish a new Bond. It would go even deeper into the territory that Daniel has mined and would have the same sense of mystery that Jason Bourne evoked when he first emerged but of course from an entirely James Bond perspective.

    My point is simple and two fold :-

    1) To argue Fleming legitimises amnesia as the transition does not work because Golden Gun does not work.

    2) There is huge potential in starting at the end and really mining what happened in that missing period in Russia and re awakening Bond from the memory of the stories the Books told. It would be quite separate from Craig Bonds arc.

    Equally something fresh and different that the writers dream up could be used to give ignition which is not a simple origin story.





  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    edited November 2021 Posts: 2,184
    matt_u wrote: »
    Bond suddenly thought, Hell! I’ll never find another girl like this one.
    She’s got everything I’ve ever looked for in a woman. She’s beautiful, in
    bed and out. She’s adventurous, brave, resourceful. She’s exciting always.
    She seems to love me. She’d let me go on with my life. She’s a lone girl, not
    cluttered up with friends, relations, belongings. Above all, she needs me.
    It’ll be someone for me to look after. I’m fed up with all these untidy, casual
    affairs that leave me with a bad conscience. I wouldn’t mind having
    children. I’ve got no social background into which she would or wouldn’t
    fit. We’re two of a pair, really. Why not make it for always?
    Bond found his voice saying those words that he had never said in his
    life before, never expected to say.
    ‘Tracy, I love you. Will you marry me?’
    She turned very pale. She looked at him wonderingly. Her lips trembled.
    ‘You mean that?’
    ‘Yes, I mean it. With all my heart.’


    - OHMSS, Ian Fleming.

    Terrific use of a fantastic Fleming passage my friend

    The only problem for me with Madeline in NTTD, is unlike Tracy and Vesper, she doesn't need Bond and NTTD makes that crystal clear.

    She raises his child alone, she becomes a psychiatrist for MI6, she shoots a bad guy in the forest, gets herself free from Primo and ultimately gets off the island with Mathilde and Nomi
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