NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited October 2021 Posts: 12,459
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    Jrh7 wrote: »
    I loved the movie apart from... A few small bits, but hated absolutely hated the ending, should never of happened. I feel they ruined it for the fans. I feel they need to have two endings on the dvd release.. One version for the fans so they can watch the movie through without the bad ending... One where he escapes, like always. And the over version for people that want to see the bad ending.
    I just hope in the next bond's they go back to the regular formula...
    I wholeheartedly disagree with your insinuation that people who like the way movie ended aren't fans. And if you've read Fleming you'd know that Bond doesn't always escape safe and sound in the end. One could even argue that he killed him in YOLT in any other way than in strict physical sense.
    Fleming touched on Bond's death in FRWL and, as we know, YOLT, and, for me, it was clear, Craig's Bond just could never drive off into the sunset. Those fans who are struggling with the end of NTTD might find, in time, they will appreciate Craig's Bond was a tragic figure from the start. So, for me, his death was inevitable.

    It may not be the happiest ending, but creatively speaking, it feels like the right one and by far the most emotionally affecting as a cinematic experience.

    I would have loved if he'd somehow pulled a TDKR-style comeback in the last second, but I don't think I would have respected the film's ambition as much as I do.

    They brought Daniel Craig's era in with a huge roll of the dice. They ended it the same way. Mad respect.

    Agree.

    We all die. You. Me. All of us. We die.

    It's how we die that matters - and that is what the writers explore here.

    For me, NTTD does justice to Craig's Bond. Connery, Moore, Brosnan represented a Bond who was/is, basically, a man who defies death. But Craig's Bond was always on a one way ticket to death. It was bloody obvious from his start in CR.

    I believe Barbara knew that. Hence, she would not let Craig go after SP.

    Craig's Bond could not just drive off into the sunset.

    Some fans fail to see what was bloody obvious. And those are, from the posts I've seen, the ones who still can't see it. Perhaps, with time, they will.

    I completely agree, @ColonelSun and @AgentM72. And I cannot think of a more fitting, moving, emotionally resonating finish for Daniel Craig's Bond than what we have in NTTD. For it is his story, not any other Bond's.

    The ending is difficult to watch, tragic, sad ... but ultimately a triumph of his spirit over this heart-wrenching fate. The way he lived, the way he died ... serving his country and his family, both of which he gave his all to protect. NTTD gives Daniel's Bond a heroic, noble, and strong finish that seems truly in character for his Bond. It hurts. But I appreciate the integrity of this ending.

    The quote at the end of the film is appropriate. "The proper function of man is to live, not to exist. I shall not waste my days in trying to prolong them. I shall use my time."
    This Bond used his time well. What he did, even as he faced an inevitable death, mattered greatly and was in keeping with his own code to live by.

    I know people are sad, hurt, feel punched in the gut by having Bond die. It hurt me deeply as I watched it unfold. But even at the first viewing, I felt this was noble and ultimately inspiring. It will be interesting to see how this films settles for fans, months and years from now. I genuinely value this one.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 7,506
    Thoughts about Bond's death: I have no issues with Bond dying, but the "Death of Bond" film should have been much better, I'm talking top 3 material. Also, it should have had a big connection to the Bond mythology. Bond being blown to pieces by rockets on a Japanese/Russian island seems pretty random. For starters, Bond should have died in Scotland, or even better, Jamaica. Now that I think about it, I wish Mendes refused to direct Bond 24 and instead returned to direct the "Death of Bond" film.

    Random?? It is pretty obvious connection with YOLT, one of Fleming's most acclaimed novels in which he more or less killed off Bond himself. It is anything but random!
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,028
    Zekidk wrote: »
    @MakeshiftPython
    Why mention OHMSS when the circumstances are very different, then?

    You were talking about how upsetting it was that EON decided to make a Bond film that gave audiences a downer ending.

    They did that with OHMSS and now with NTTD.

    And that was obviously intentional because in the official podcasts MGW brought up how Cubby always felt OHMSS was an important film in the series. So they definitely had that in mind when making NTTD in terms of how audiences will react to an emotional ending.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,634
    I get why it leaves people gutted. But I don't like the "only TRUE fans" rhetoric. That nonsense belongs in the YouTube comment section. We play by different rules here and I wish some of our newcomers had taken the time to read our rules before barging in and accusing respected veterans of arrogance or of not being TRUE fans, whatever that means.
  • Posts: 7,506
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I get why it leaves people gutted. But I don't like the "only TRUE fans" rhetoric. That nonsense belongs in the YouTube comment section. We play by different rules here and I wish some of our newcomers had taken the time to read our rules before barging in and accusing respected veterans of arrogance or of not being TRUE fans, whatever that means.

    Not only that, but I have seen members claim Babs and Michael G Wilson "don't get Bond". Now, how's that for arrogance?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited October 2021 Posts: 8,028
    jobo wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I get why it leaves people gutted. But I don't like the "only TRUE fans" rhetoric. That nonsense belongs in the YouTube comment section. We play by different rules here and I wish some of our newcomers had taken the time to read our rules before barging in and accusing respected veterans of arrogance or of not being TRUE fans, whatever that means.

    Not only that, but I have seen members claim Babs and Michael G Wilson "don't get Bond". Now, how's that for arrogance?

    Some have been claiming that since 1995. Many did in 2002!
  • cwl007cwl007 England
    Posts: 611
    When the initial spoiler free reactions came out last week just after the royal premiere there were several comments of a similar nature. That being that this film will be enjoyed by the general audience but the fandom will be split. Boy were they right!
    The fan's opinions on this forum has been divided massively, to an even larger extent than they were for Spectre.
    But do you know what, having now seen NTTD twice now, I can confidently say I really enjoy it. There are some great moments and scenes and character work. Would I have preferred Bond didn't die? Yes I would, but he has and that's that. It was done with dramatic intent and as part of the whole DC era it works pretty well.
    Some like it, some don't and that's cool, each to their own. We don't need to attack each others opinions. What we should be celebrating is that it appears to be doing well at the box office and will hopefully do well in the US and we're told "James Bond Will Return"
    12 months ago I'd have happily settled for that.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 3,169
    Zekidk wrote: »
    @MakeshiftPython
    Why mention OHMSS when the circumstances are very different, then?

    You were talking about how upsetting it was that EON decided to make a Bond film that gave audiences a downer ending.
    Here's the quote you are referring to:
    Zekidk wrote: »
    So after waiting six years and hype being built up the last three years, all we are left with is not a Bond 25 celebration, but a huge brawl about the death of James Bond. How sad.
    I am referring to comments on this, and other, forums. Upsetting? Maybe for some/many. I don't really mind Bond dying. It's the way he goes and many other aspects of the movie I find interesting topics of discussion, and not the black and white polarizing "should he"/"should he not" die debate.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,634
    jobo wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I get why it leaves people gutted. But I don't like the "only TRUE fans" rhetoric. That nonsense belongs in the YouTube comment section. We play by different rules here and I wish some of our newcomers had taken the time to read our rules before barging in and accusing respected veterans of arrogance or of not being TRUE fans, whatever that means.

    Not only that, but I have seen members claim Babs and Michael G Wilson "don't get Bond". Now, how's that for arrogance?
    Better still, we've had members here willing to write to the producers and send them a list of things that supposedmy constitute a good Bond film. Arrogance? More like Twitter-level stupidity.
  • SimonSimon Keeping The British End Up...
    Posts: 57
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Better still, we've had members here willing to write to the producers and send them a list of things that supposedmy constitute a good Bond film.


    EON's contact centre...

    zrsncgn2xtky.gif

  • jobo wrote: »
    Random?? It is pretty obvious connection with YOLT, one of Fleming's most acclaimed novels in which he more or less killed off Bond himself. It is anything but random!

    The Bond film franchise is now far bigger than Fleming's Bond had ever been. Also very different. The death of cinematic Bond should have been more connected to the mythos of the cinematic Bond. And I hope we all agree Bond dying in Scotland, or Jamaica would have been more poignant.
  • Posts: 3,169
    Don't underestimate popular demand. They brought Jaws back in MR because of popular demand. The myth about producers not listening to fans are very wrong. Now I am going to finish my "bring back Paloma" email request!
  • Posts: 7,506
    jobo wrote: »
    Random?? It is pretty obvious connection with YOLT, one of Fleming's most acclaimed novels in which he more or less killed off Bond himself. It is anything but random!

    The Bond film franchise is now far bigger than Fleming's Bond had ever been. Also very different. The death of cinematic Bond should have been more connected to the mythos of the cinematic Bond. And I hope we all agree Bond dying in Scotland, or Jamaica would have been more poignant.

    No, I don't agree at all. I think the location is great, and the decision to tie it in with YOLT an inspired choice!
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,459
    I am very happy with how the film handled ... all of it, including every location.
    Great locations! For the final scenes, I would not change it.
  • edited October 2021 Posts: 7,506
    I am very happy with how the film handled ... all of it, including every location.
    Great locations! For the final scenes, I would not change it.

    I was dreaming of Bond going to Norway and Japan and for the YOLT novel to be utilized somehow. So needless to say, I'm very happy! Can't believe they ticked all of them off in the same film! It's as if they have been reading my comments on this site through the years. I am willing to take the credit anyway ;)
  • I think this is only the second time I've posted on this site although I read it a lot. I'm about to see the film. Have read the spoilers. Doesn't bother me. Doesn't bother me either that Bond dies so long as it's done with integrity. The character will be back, there will be other Bond films to enjoy. One of the things that disuades me from commenting more often here is the sense of entitlement of some of those who give opinions. You try keeping a global film franchise going for almost 60 years. It's as if Bond fans are some enlightened species with additional powers, talents and insights. You're not. You sit on the toilet like everyone in the world
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited October 2021 Posts: 4,343
    Zekidk wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    So after waiting six years and hype being built up the last three years, all we are left with is not a Bond 25 celebration, but a huge brawl about the death of James Bond. How sad.

    That's because BB and MGW made a funeral, not a celebration.
    Thought it was DC's call. My point is that I find it sad that they wanted the audience to leave the theatre in tears, rather with a smile on their face.
    matt_u wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    So after waiting six years and hype being built up the last three years, all we are left with is not a Bond 25 celebration, but a huge brawl about the death of James Bond. How sad.

    Speak for yourself. ;)
    Just stating the fact that the number one topic of discussion is the heated for/against Bond dying. And as others have mentioned....you do come of as a very arrogant person. Please dial down the charm.

    I wasn’t the one that was called arrogant and the fact that there’s a polarizing ending doesn’t mean Bond 25 isn’t a celebration and a great moment for a lot of people.
    slide_99 wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Just accept the fact that you hate the concept, and that's it. Because that's really it.

    Yes, I am. That's my point. People are allowed to be inherently against certain ideas on general principles. However, I still disagree about this being an inevitable conclusion to Craig's Bond. Are you saying that back when you first saw CR (or heck even Skyfall), that you knew this is how they'd end his tenure, that it couldn't possibly have any other conclusion? Really?

    I’m not saying they’re not allowed, I only feel that I can’t take them seriously since there’s little if no room for discussion.
    Anyway I’m not saying that. I’m not saying it was the only possible outcome.
    What I’m saying is that to me killing off Bond is a natural, meaningful, fitting closure for this unique take on Bond, especially since NTTD has been designed as a culmination of all the themes of the Craig era.
  • Posts: 82
    The name’s Franks. Peter Franks
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,028
    Zekidk wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    @MakeshiftPython
    Why mention OHMSS when the circumstances are very different, then?

    You were talking about how upsetting it was that EON decided to make a Bond film that gave audiences a downer ending.
    Here's the quote you are referring to:
    Zekidk wrote: »
    So after waiting six years and hype being built up the last three years, all we are left with is not a Bond 25 celebration, but a huge brawl about the death of James Bond. How sad.
    I am referring to comments on this, and other, forums. Upsetting? Maybe for some/many. I don't really mind Bond dying. It's the way he goes and many other aspects of the movie I find interesting topics of discussion, and not the black and white polarizing "should he"/"should he not" die debate.

    I was actually referring to this quote:
    Zekidk wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Zekidk wrote: »
    So after waiting six years and hype being built up the last three years, all we are left with is not a Bond 25 celebration, but a huge brawl about the death of James Bond. How sad.

    That's because BB and MGW made a funeral, not a celebration.
    Thought it was DC's call. My point is that I find it sad that they wanted the audience to leave the theatre in tears, rather with a smile on their face.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited October 2021 Posts: 12,459
    Yes, I thought of this yesterday ...
    Fans can take the ending of this movie maybe only two ways:

    1) Think it's appropriate, moving, done with integrity, just right for this particular Bond and thank you, Daniel and EON
    OR
    2) go full Tiffany: (here at the 3min 18 sec mark; I do not know how to make a gif) ;)

  • Posts: 82
    Yes, I thought of this yesterday ...
    Fans can take the ending of this movie maybe only two ways:

    1) Think it's appropriate, moving, done with integrity, just right for this particular Bond and thank you, Daniel and EON
    OR
    2) go full Tiffany: (here at the 3min 18 sec mark; I do not know how to make a gif) ;)

    Great minds.

  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    Cubby and Harry bought the rights to all Bond novels apart from CR (and TB, but that's that story)', so, yes, EON can do with Bond whatever they like. They own it.
  • Posts: 87
    Yes, I thought of this yesterday ...
    Fans can take the ending of this movie maybe only two ways:

    1) Think it's appropriate, moving, done with integrity, just right for this particular Bond and thank you, Daniel and EON
    OR
    2) go full Tiffany: (here at the 3min 18 sec mark; I do not know how to make a gif) ;)


    In addition to the option of killing Bond from DAF, there is another - only possible:



  • Can anyone point me to the footage from the trailers or behind the scenes where Bond is fighting Primo and he rips off his tie.

    Noticed it was missing on first watch, second time I noticed that they did a match cut in the film and hid an edit so he goes from having a tie to not having a time in one camera move.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,869
    Can anyone point me to the footage from the trailers or behind the scenes where Bond is fighting Primo and he rips off his tie.

    Noticed it was missing on first watch, second time I noticed that they did a match cut in the film and hid an edit so he goes from having a tie to not having a time in one camera move.
    I believe it's in here @DoubleOhDalton. I think it was only ever seen in the behind the scenes footage.

  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 6,808
    Personally I am not against the concept of Bond dying, or having him father a child for that matter.

    I feel though it was handled poorly, lacking in subtlety and giving way to a sentimental cheesefest.

    Look at how elegantly Tracy’s death was handled in OHMSS. The actor’s expression doing most of the work instead of literally saying ‘I love you’. Also didn’t last for ages.

    Less is certainly more when it comes to scenes of this nature. In my opinion that is, of course.

    NTTD itself even illustrates that it can do better when Bond puts Madeleine on the train. I found that scene much better-handled than Bond’s demise.
  • SmiertSpionamSmiertSpionam Jamaica
    edited October 2021 Posts: 1
    Sorry for the sensitive types who won’t be able to take a criticism of this particular picture (sorry to not be a True Fan) but all they had to do was not spell it out by showing us DC JB catch fire, wail, melt, evaporate and steam off into the upper atmosphere (to join Jaws, no he survived ), to avoid most of the controversy here (fan fiction about Dou-Dou aside).

    If they had shown DC JB, mortally wounded, stuck on this island (with previously capable and adept Mallory gurning moronically on in the background) then cut to Madeleine, Mathilde, and Ms 007 2k21 in the dingy with explosions suddenly going off on the island, even showing the aftermath but without spelling it out, ala Sessame Street, most of us would have left the theatre remembering Matera, Jamaica, Cuba and Craig’s era fondly , enjoying the filum and taking our own interpretation of the ending away with us.

    Instead we have the melting and fizzing DC ending. No room for any ambiguity there. Sorry for not being a film buff but did they really need to draw it in crayon?

    Personally there was a lot to like in this film but the way they handled the ending was off note, in the bigger picture of Bond (screen and page, Daniel Craig to one side) and given the context recently of the majority of people being constrained due to C-19.

    DC has been Bond for 15 years, rather a long time granted but many of us have been watching these films since were in short trousers in the 60s, 70s or 80s and for many of that cohort it’s hard to come to terms with JB melting and fizzing just to suit a particular lovey types aching need for an overarching narrative arc, because that’s what they do in comic book films, latterly . Oh for the days of Tim Burton, Michelle Pfiefer and a bit of bondage gear. Here’s Johnny.

    Imply Bond is dead sure, (Bond being more than just one actor), but give us a kernel (colonel/commander) of hope at the least. It means a lot. Question if anyone, True Fan or casual would have walked out of the local Odeon deflated and feeling the need to vent if there were in any way an ambiguous end to this one (that doesn’t need to be JB in a Dinghy with Paloma/Dou-Dou whilst Boris Johnson & Prince Andrew attempt a WhatsApp Video Call)
  • jobo wrote: »
    I am very happy with how the film handled ... all of it, including every location.
    Great locations! For the final scenes, I would not change it.

    I was dreaming of Bond going to Norway and Japan and for the YOLT novel to be utilized somehow. So needless to say, I'm very happy! Can't believe they ticked all of them off in the same film! It's as if they have been reading my comments on this site through the years. I am willing to take the credit anyway ;)

    The very first thing I said coming out of seeing Spectre was that they will adapt in some way the ending of Fleming's YOLT in the next one.
  • Going in for a third viewing tomorrow. I actually think its going to end up in my top five. The ending distressed the hell out of me, but the film is still with me, nearly a week on. It's usually only deeply powerful films like 1917 that you think about days later. It won't top OHMSS,Casino Royale,Skyfall, or the two Dalton films for me, but i'd probably place it next. As for what happens next, Craig era Bond is dead, give the franchise to a director who has his own vision for a trilogy, or a series of films. Adored the Craig era, but a new direction is needed. If Christopher Nolan, still wants, let him. I hated Tenet but the LTK inspired opening of Dark Knight Rises, shows the man is a 007 fan. One of our own.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited October 2021 Posts: 357
    "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of light, it was the season of darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair.”- The opening line of Charles Dickens review of "No Time To Die"

    I guess even though I haven't seen the movie yet I can still discuss "macro" issues based on what other people have raised?

    For myself, although I would prefer Bond not to die, I don't see it as a deal breaker if Craig-Bond goes out that way, as the Craig era has always leaned toward being completely self contained without fully committing to it until this final chapter.

    SP aimed to wrap up the untidy loose ends of the failed QOS concept by incorporating them into a revival of Spectre, with Craig-Bond riding off into the sunset without too much fanfare. That could have been one suitable ending for the Craig-Bond cycle, if the producers and actor hadn't managed to reach agreement on a further instalment.

    Spectre apparently defeated, Blofeld in prison, if not actually dead (satisfactory for the anti vigilante, anti corporal punishment section of the audience), Craig-Bond alive and moving his life in a new direction (leaving the audience to imagine the redemption and rehabilitation of their choice)

    Eat, Pray, Kill. "James Bond had everything a modern secret agent is supposed to dream of having – a gun, a sports car, a successful career – yet like so many others, he found himself lost, confused, and searching for what he really wanted in life..."

    However once they did agree to another final go-round they went back into full Skyfall mode, aiming for another shot at epic Oscar worthy drama, an iconoclastic Bond film to end all Bond films!!!

    As part of the Grand Scheme they decided to try and address and incorporate some of the more controversial ideas that have been floating around - A female 007? A black 007? How about a black female 007! (IMO their solution to that conundrum is quite elegant) And instead of retiring, how about going full throttle "Tale Of Two Cities" and killing off James Bond all together this time?

    "It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known." said Craig-Bond

    Lots of fascinating discussion, looking forward to seeing for myself one day... (big sigh!)
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