NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • Posts: 503
    Regardless of what we all think about this movie and the ending, I must say one thing for sure:

    I've never anticipated a new Bond movie more in my lifetime than I'm anticipating Bond 26...
  • Posts: 2,400
    Bond wrote: »
    Regardless of what we all think about this movie and the ending, I must say one thing for sure:

    I've never anticipated a new Bond movie more in my lifetime than I'm anticipating Bond 26...

    I will say as someone with the polar opposite feeling about NTTD that, while I was there for the transition from Brosnan to Craig, I was only 10, and my only investment in it was my childish movement with the pack of going "this guy looks like a henchman, not Bond." This is the first time I've REALLY been around for a changing of the guard, and to top it off after such a long and iconic tenure, Bond as a pop culture icon like the world hasn't seen since GF/TB. I feel VERY invested in Bond 26 and beyond.
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 573
    Have to agree that going with a complete YOLT ending wouldn't have worked because people would want to know how he recovers from amnesia, etc.

    I'd have gone with a subtle theme of him getting out, sans being infected, but getting out just barely. A fake out so you think he's dead but not. Final scene you see dou dou in their home but not him. Something like that.

    But as I said people would complain he's leading a life of domesticity which he struggles with.

    No one was going to be happy with this I feel no matter what direction.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited October 2021 Posts: 4,343
    A question for the ones who saw it in English. They refer to the people with the nanobots in their body as “infected” or “poisoned”?
  • Posts: 526
    It’s just rushed, undercooked, and dour. I just don’t get much enjoyment out of it like with Craig’s other films.
    My take on QOS:
    This isn't a mindless blow-'em-up thriller, this is an intelligently crafted, superbly edited, lean, mean piece of work. Frenetic action, and the most serious (arguably) Bond movie ever. But, I respect your opinion. That’s the thing today that I don’t understand-it’s okay to have different views. It did take me several viewings to come to that conclusion, and I wrestled with the ending...a lot. I’m the end, it really appealed to me. He finds peace, or so we thought.
  • Posts: 526
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    I didn't even know we were having that discussion. I was under the impression we were talking about Bond being a womaniser and about the sexiness in the films.

    I have no problem with broader representations, and the inclusion of gay characters. I thought that wasn't even a discussion.

    And about that "wokeness" thing or the feminist agenda, I didn't feel it in the film. Not at all.

    That being said, gone is much of the sexiness oriented for the heterosexual males who got into Bond because of it, amongst other reasons. I thought this was the discussion we were having. The Nolan films, for example, are known to have no sexiness at all.

    I guess I was mistaken, and took part in a discussion I didn't know was getting on.

    My bad. Carry on.


    I fell in love with the books and films as a young boy, and Bond will always work best for me when that boyhood's adventure quality shines through. A big part of that, for me, will always be The Bond Girls and the fantasy world that they exist in (secondary to the interplay with his adversaries, of course). I do feel that these latest films aren't made for me, but that's how I've felt about the world fro quite a few years now. I'm about seven years away from retirement, and when I get there I see myself stepping back from most of society (I'm looking to buy a decent amount of property out in the woods of Upstate NY), focusing on my surviving friends, and basically regaling in the music, films and books of my past.
    Sounds like a great plan. Peace and tranquility ...and Bond! Can’t go wrong with that. Do you think any of Craig’s movies are like Risico? I live out in a rural area, very few people around, and we enjoy it. Lots of peace and quiet.

    I spent most of the last 40 years (there was a two year semi-rural break, but that was not the best situation) living in or near New York City, Los Angeles or San Francisco, it will be a nice change.
    I’m sure you will enjoy it. Nice thing about retirement is that every day is a Saturday : )
    Are you still planning on missing NTTD? Not going to the theatre to watch it? Just wondered where you were at now with it.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    matt_u wrote: »
    Or maybe is just the first scene with Bond and Swann involved. She gets pulled out the frozen lake as a kid and cut to the adult Swann emerging from the sea... that would be a nice transition... and after that beach time* they go the the DB5 driving to Matera.

    Hey it looks like I cracked this scene February 2020. :D
  • Posts: 526
    Someone told me , just saw the email, that there is more action in NTTD than in all of Craig’s other Movies put together? Is this true? This person can exaggerate at times.
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 573
    I wouldn't go that far. There's enough though.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,459
    I just got home from seeing it - and came right here to be candid. It was GREAT! Just such a superb Bond film, beautifully done and I can hardly find fault with anything; just small things. I am so happy for Daniel to end his era with this one.

    I did not see how any Bond film could have him die and pull it off, but this one does. It works. It's emotional, of course, but beautiful and fitting. Cinematically stunning, with perfect editing and sound, outstanding action sequences, solid acting from all (especially Daniel) and Lea works much better in this one.

    I know plenty are going to be upset about: a) him dying and b) him fathering a child. And I couldn't fathom those two things working either. I did ponder them because they've been mentioned several times on this forum. But this film did it right, with the right touch, the right tone. It caps off all the stories from CR to now. I still wanted him to live. It hits hard, and I still feel stunned. But it is fitting. Also, this is the right director and cinematographer for sure.

    I hope it does great box office; it deserves it. And I'm so glad they saved it for cinema only release. I see it again this Sunday. It is right under Casino Royale for me. What a great movie, and I'm really happy Daniel did not stop with Spectre. So yes, I'm a happy Bond fan even with that ending for Bond. It exceeded my expectations.
  • Tokoloshe2Tokoloshe2 Northern Ireland
    Posts: 1,172
    matt_u wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Or maybe is just the first scene with Bond and Swann involved. She gets pulled out the frozen lake as a kid and cut to the adult Swann emerging from the sea... that would be a nice transition... and after that beach time* they go the the DB5 driving to Matera.

    Hey it looks like I cracked this scene February 2020. :D

    That is an impressive prediction :)
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    You don't kill off a cash cow like this. There is nowhere to go now.

    The franchise needs a serious overhaul after this, a complete reboot, including the backroom team, because they have clearly run out of steam.

    This really a question directed at those who hold these sentiments rather than just you @jetsetwilly : Did you honestly believe that the next Bond actor would continue the version of Bond played by Craig, like how it used to be in the old days from Sean to Roger etc?

    If you had that expectation cemented in, I can now understand the confusion and frustration. Personally, I had already prepared myself for the idea that Craig’s run would be completely self contained and not have any carry over so that Craig’s version would have a definitive ending. No more Ralph Fiennes, no more Naomie Harris, Ben Whishaw, etc. I never expected any of this cast to play the role until they literally dropped dead like Bernard Lee and Desmond Llewelyn.

    I think this is basically it. I'm not a Bond historian like some people here, but this is the first time they went into a production where everyone knew this was going to be the actor's last film, right? Add to that, that Craig has always been slightly to the side of the other films in terms of chronology, I guess they thought to themselves: If we are ever going to do a film in which
    Bond dies
    (btw, what's the policy on using the spoiler tag in this thread? Some do it, others don't...) this is it. They had Daniel's buy-in for it, they had an already seperated out mini-universe for which they can say "That's all one thing and now here is a new thing (or a return to how it was before CR)" so they went and did it.
    I have to say, once you get past whether that was the right call or not (and I am still torn on it), I like a lot about the way it happens.
    He isn't killed by a villain, but by the Royal frigging Navy (Well, kind of. We'll have to revisit, whether Bond basically failed again, like in SF). He gets to stand tall in the face of obliteration. He saved the world and those he loved. That's an ok way to go, I feel. I am not one for the cheesiness of those final lines, but if you decide to kill James Bond, there are many much worse ways to do it.
  • imranbecksimranbecks Singapore
    Posts: 972
    Someone told me , just saw the email, that there is more action in NTTD than in all of Craig’s other Movies put together? Is this true? This person can exaggerate at times.
    Come to think of it, there is definitely plenty of action in NTTD.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    Univex wrote: »
    I have now seen it.

    I'm underwhelmed. To put it simply, I didn't like it. And I really wanted to like it. But I didn't.

    The first 40m of the film are impressive, but then it goes south without any chance for remission.

    Well, that was that.

    Moreover, I believe the universe we once loved, the Bond style of films died with it. Long gone is the womaniser, stylish secret agent. I don't believe he's coming back.

    What a melodrama of epic proportions. And I didn't feel for it. Not once. For the first time, I left the cinema and a Bond film feeling...nothing.

    Sure there are brilliantly executed scenes, and the direction is very good, despite most of it looking cartoonish, but although I was loving the first part of the film, it all fell fast and hard.
    Bond is dead
    . Really. Because I don't imagine they'll leave this approach, ever. I thought this film had a chance at at least being sexy. But it isn't. After all, you can't really do sexy anymore.

    I'm sure there are parts of it I'll praise, given time. But for now, I just deflated.

    Underwhelmed and deflated.

    It's interesting how much quality DC's tenure has. And yet, it doesn't get to my heart. Not really. I can't explain it more than this. I liked his tenure. They were the best years of my life. I really like Mr. Craig. And I've been always a strong EON supporter in every way.

    But...I don't like what they've done to Bond. Not in this film. And not just the ending.

    Now, I would've paid good money to watch those Bond and Felix Cuban adventures, but hey, they don't go for that. We have to watch soap operas of epic proportions every single g damn time.

    Rant over.

    Univex out

    I agree completely. I am booked in to see it a second time in about two hours and to be honest I don't really want to go.

    There is brilliant stuff in it, and there were times when I felt that it was moving really well. The first hour surprised me how good it was. I love the Felix scenes.

    But yes, 'deflated' is the word.
  • Posts: 3,272
    00Heaven wrote: »
    I imagine there was never going to be a one size fits all ending for everyone.

    Had bond escaped without being infected people would complain that he's gone to be a dad and live with his family.

    Had bond managed to escape and get amnesia then everyone he touches gets infected and eventually madeleine and mathilde die. People would complain then too.

    Instead bond dies and people complain anyway. I'd be interested to see the correlation between people who dislike the daughter aspect and the death aspect because I suspect there's nothing in this film that could have been done to make it better for you.

    In that respect just wait for bond 26. That's the only thing I can tell you.

    There is another outcome you overlooked - had Bond managed to escape and get amnesia WITHOUT the infection. That would have been the best way to end it.
  • MJH1973MJH1973 North West, UK
    edited October 2021 Posts: 36
    Saw the movie yesterday. I thought it was s fitting send off for Daniel Craig. Thoroughly enjoyed the movie, but it’s certainly not without its little flaws. Ana De Armas underused, weak villain and Lynch written to be too much like Bond. But still, I really enjoyed it.

    I suppose they can kill Bond off because the movies exists in their own continuity so the next Bond will be a big reboot, not only of the character but the while supporting cast.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    Xandaca wrote: »
    I'm genuinely amazed so many people seem to have liked or loved the film. One of the great things about the Bond series is of course that everyone has different favourites, so none of this is at all criticism of those who enjoyed NTTD, but reading comments does feel as though most people watched a different film to me. Everything (except the terrible gunbarrel sequence) from the beginning through to the end of the Cuba scenes was absolutely fantastic, especially Ana de Armas' joyful cameo. It moved at a good pace, the action was exciting, the opening scene was wonderfully different from anything in a Bond movie to date, there seemed to be a genuine will to tell a story rather than just stringing action sequences together and the characters were vividly drawn and had distinct and engaging relationships with each other. The Bond/Felix friendship hasn't been so tangible outside Licence To Kill or Live And Let Die.

    And then the movie arrives in London and hits a brick wall. The dire telenovela nonsense carried over from the previous film is shoved to the fore. Bond displays the emotional maturity of a mopey teenager. Dialogue becomes interminable exposition, delivered in static back-and-forth. The action, when it eventually resumes, becomes rote and uninteresting. Allusions to previous films - OHMSS in particular, right down to Zimmer's heavily rehashed score - only show how little everyone involved understands why those films worked, just as the nods to some of Fleming's most evocative unused material - the garden of death, Bond potentially having a child - in the latter case contradict the point Fleming was making about his character (that no matter how much Bond, consciously or not, wants a peaceful domestic life, he can never have it because destiny will always draw him back to his duty) and in the former strips it of all its flavour, tension and strangeness - not to mention it having no logical place in the plot, aside from Safin's apparent love of gardening - in favour of having Bond and Nomi ambling through a rent-a-lair shooting the occasional mook. As for Bond dying at the end, frankly, I just didn't care: it was, as with much before it (including the same 'twist' happening to Felix and Blofeld), just a twist for the sake of a twist, revealing nothing, thematically questionable and seemingly only there to give Craig a moment and make the writers feel clever for pointlessly inverting OHMSS.

    As for the characters, Felix was great and Paloma was wonderful, but Safin was a non-entity of a villain with little discernable scheme beyond wanting to kill loads of people for the sake of it (basically a reheated Avengers Endgame, with a villain with less screentime, charisma and presence), all of which was treated as an afterthought compared to the Bond/Madeleine/Safin/Blofeld soap opera that was the film's real plot. I feel sorry for Lashana Lynch, who played her character with an agreeably understated charisma but whose only impactful function was as Bond's driver. You could take Nomi out of the plot entirely and only really lose a few instances of Bond having access to transport. Even less useful was the addition of Mathilde, whose presence was precisely as welcome as every previous occasion a 'cute' moppet gets crammed into a movie to force unearned emotional stakes.

    Barring that fantastic opening scene, all the attempts at 'modernisation' and revisionism were half-measures for the sake of changing something, lacking any real narrative or thematic purpose. All these calls for the series to 'radically evolve' undermine how the series has always done exactly that - how else would it have survived almost sixty years? - and done it remarkably well, give or take a few undeniable missteps. While I liked both Nomi and Paloma in this (Madeleine less so, given she still barely registers as a character), the whole 'new type of independent Bond woman' narrative in the build-up also does a serious disservice to the fact that the women of Bond are iconic precisely because they're so varied and memorable in their own right. Yes, there are some damsels and some dimwits, but also mob bosses, scientists, fellow agents, civilians rising to the occasion, computer technicians, manipulators, warriors... there is no one type of Bond girl/woman and the fan favourites are always those who do more than look great in a bikini or slinky dress, though that is as much part of the job description as Bond has to be as sexy to women.

    Either way, I found everything in NTTD post-Cuba to be a real bore and one often as misguided or half-baked as SPECTRE. Craig's tenure hasn't been my favourite but has produced two series classics in Casino and Skyfall, so it's a shame his time ends on a note casting those two successes as exceptions rather than the rule.

    Well put.
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 573
    00Heaven wrote: »
    I imagine there was never going to be a one size fits all ending for everyone.

    Had bond escaped without being infected people would complain that he's gone to be a dad and live with his family.

    Had bond managed to escape and get amnesia then everyone he touches gets infected and eventually madeleine and mathilde die. People would complain then too.

    Instead bond dies and people complain anyway. I'd be interested to see the correlation between people who dislike the daughter aspect and the death aspect because I suspect there's nothing in this film that could have been done to make it better for you.

    In that respect just wait for bond 26. That's the only thing I can tell you.

    There is another outcome you overlooked - had Bond managed to escape and get amnesia WITHOUT the infection. That would have been the best way to end it.

    Then you have the YOLT issue. People have expressed the issues with that better than me. In some ways its just not subtle enough.
  • BCLBCL Norfolk
    edited October 2021 Posts: 3
    I've always liked Craig as Bond and appreciate the concerted effort the producers have made to make his story arc complete, with a start, a(somewhat of a) middle and an end. However, I feel the lengths they have gone to to chuck everything at Craig's Bond - be it his beginning (which was great), his family heritage, losing M, and now his demise and having a child - whilst also veering away from some rather crucial and key elements to the character and his story - such as no marriage to Tracy (I'd have thought they'd chuck this is given everything else they've done. Would have rather that they did than have the M.Swann romance), inexplicably having Blofeld being his older step-brother etc - has now made his overall tenure look overcooked and somewhat messy. It started so promisingly but I believe it went downhill soon after Skyfall. I believe that's where they should have stopped or continued with a more conservative and traditional formula.

    For me they have tried too hard and I suspect made their lives more difficult when it comes to what they do next. Personally, I sincerely hope they do start afresh and in a new ‘world’. My worry is that they might try to continue with this current world (therefore without James Bond), or, worse still, continue and decide that James Bond is in fact a code name and it's passed on to someone else. I wouldn't put it past them doing this given the lengths they've gone to so far to squeeze everything into Craig’s Bond story.

    I do think they've shot themselves in the foot. Its twofold: the last two films have gone a bit crazy and they're tried to do and give far too much to the character; secondly, and personally, I am left not only unexcited by what they will do with the next film but am in fact a little concerned about the path they will now take.

    Not ideal in my eyes, but that's just my view, obviously!!
  • Posts: 2,400
    I just got home from seeing it - and came right here to be candid. It was GREAT! Just such a superb Bond film, beautifully done and I can hardly find fault with anything; just small things. I am so happy for Daniel to end his era with this one.

    I did not see how any Bond film could have him die and pull it off, but this one does. It works. It's emotional, of course, but beautiful and fitting. Cinematically stunning, with perfect editing and sound, outstanding action sequences, solid acting from all (especially Daniel) and Lea works much better in this one.

    I know plenty are going to be upset about: a) him dying and b) him fathering a child. And I couldn't fathom those two things working either. I did ponder them because they've been mentioned several times on this forum. But this film did it right, with the right touch, the right tone. It caps off all the stories from CR to now. I still wanted him to live. It hits hard, and I still feel stunned. But it is fitting. Also, this is the right director and cinematographer for sure.

    I hope it does great box office; it deserves it. And I'm so glad they saved it for cinema only release. I see it again this Sunday. It is right under Casino Royale for me. What a great movie, and I'm really happy Daniel did not stop with Spectre. So yes, I'm a happy Bond fan even with that ending for Bond. It exceeded my expectations.

    Is Casino Royale also your #1? If so, I feel quite vindicated by your reaction.
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 573
    I think for those concerned at where the franchise goes now... this eras Tracy is Madeleine. It's in some ways a repeat of what has come before. There will be other directions to take Bond always and when there is a new generation no doubt we'll see something similar again (perhaps not in our lifetimes) and people will be having this conversation again.

    In short... I'm not too worried.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,459
    Do we need spoiler tags on this thread?! I just typed without any!
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited October 2021 Posts: 12,459
    I have not read opinions on here yet, except a couple on this page, @StirredNotShaken . I love CR! It is in my top 5 of all time. My Craig films for me are ranked CR, NTTD, SF, QOS, SP. I felt like this is truly a great Bond film! I hope I am not in the minority, thought I know some fans will be very upset with him dying in this one.

    I have not ranked ALL the films in a long time; it is not a pastime for me. But usually I have CR or FRWL as #1. Skyfall in top 10.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,459
    I think some folks will like to pick the story apart, and that's fine; that's what we do here. But the villain, evil plot, etc. didn't matter hugely to me. Having it be a super cunning plan, etc. My ride with this film was to tie things up for Craig's Bond and that is done beautifully. I am so glad Danny Boyle (whom I like okay, from the little I have seen) did NOT direct this one. Cary and Linus are superb. Action spot on, jolting, fantastic, and this film did not drag for me at all.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,664
    This is easy for me to say, because I loved the movie, but some of us should at least try to settle down a bit. Some things to remember:

    There's 24 other movies in the series, and there will be more in the future. You probably really like most of them. They're still right there on your shelf. This movie doesn't affect those movies. (Well, maybe Spectre, and if you love that and hate this, then I suppose that would be annoying) Craig's timeline has always been its own thing. It's a self-contained five-part anthology.

    At the end of Spectre, Bond retired and drove off into the sunset with the woman he loves, and there was a sense of finality. They weren't going to bring him back, do a bunch of stuff, and then again have a completely happy ending where all is completely well with a sense of finality. That wouldn't really work.

    Craig Bond saved pretty much the world and went out smiling, having finally protected the people he loves.

    James Bond will return.
  • Posts: 1,314
    Does anyone else think this is a bigger mistake than Die Another Day?

    I’m really quite angry about the way they see the character as disposable. There’s 60 years of love and investment in him. Thrown away for a mediocre melodrama that passes as emotion.
  • Posts: 2,400
    "James Bond is dead. Long live James Bond."
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,459
    I think this film is a boost for the franchise and is not a mistake by any means.
  • Posts: 3,272
    00Heaven wrote: »
    00Heaven wrote: »
    I imagine there was never going to be a one size fits all ending for everyone.

    Had bond escaped without being infected people would complain that he's gone to be a dad and live with his family.

    Had bond managed to escape and get amnesia then everyone he touches gets infected and eventually madeleine and mathilde die. People would complain then too.

    Instead bond dies and people complain anyway. I'd be interested to see the correlation between people who dislike the daughter aspect and the death aspect because I suspect there's nothing in this film that could have been done to make it better for you.

    In that respect just wait for bond 26. That's the only thing I can tell you.

    There is another outcome you overlooked - had Bond managed to escape and get amnesia WITHOUT the infection. That would have been the best way to end it.

    Then you have the YOLT issue. People have expressed the issues with that better than me. In some ways its just not subtle enough.

    I don't care about subtle. It still would have been a tragic ending, but far better than what we got instead, which yes, wasn't subtle. But not good either.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    My issue with the Craig era being self contained is that none of the emotional pay offs in NTTD are earned. They are piggy backing on the emotional connections and creative hard work of the Cubby era rather than building something new themselves.

    We don't see Craig's Bond save the world multiple times. So why do characters react to him in NTTD like he's a living legend? (You could argue he fails the mission in CR and SF too).

    They want us to feel for Bond that Felix has died, but their relationship doesn't go beyond two or three short meetings. Again, the filmmakers are reliant on what was built during the Cubby era.

    In both of the above cases it is all supposed to have happened off screen in adventures we haven't seen. That isn't satisfying. I don't like the Marvel films, but they took the time to actually show Iron Man and Thor and whoever else doing their heroic deeds and becoming friends and developing a relationship etc over multiple films.

    As for the relationship with Swann, they have to revert back to the Louis Armstrong song repeatedly to generate some emotion. Again, piggy backing on what's gone before.

    So, on the one hand we are all being told to chill out about the ending to NTTD because it will just reboot in the next instalment, and stop being a 'baby' about the film not turning out as we wanted and for things not staying the same. But within NTTD itself Bond's reputation is dependent on those previous formulaic iterations of the character that a lot of people on here seem to despise, and it only gets to have the specific ending it does because of those formulaic Cubby produced movies.

    This conflict between the old and new films is probably something more generated by the fans rather than EON, who probably don't see the split so sharply, but it does demonstrate how accurate some critics were when they said that NTTD was likely to divide fan opinion.

    Anyway, it is a well made film and after the 60 minute mark I was really impressed. I came away hating it by the end. I am off now to see it again and we will see if my opinions even out over time.
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