Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Well just to play Devil's Advocate .... Killing is Bond's job, while it's alien to Melina, So I guess Bond is simply giving her some advice ;) ........ I'll get my coat.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    Revelator wrote: »
    I think the FYEO pre-credits sequence has a great start but falls apart at the end: Blofeld is reduced to a panicky ninny and Bond is a little too detached and jokey with the man who murdered his wife.

    The DAF pre-credits sequence lacks any reference to Tracy's death but presents Bond as relentlessly tracking Blofeld worldwide, attacking every informant. Would Bond have been as brutal if he didn't have a score to settle?

    And when Bond gets his hands on "Blofeld," he remains brutal, clocking the "real" Blofeld with a lamp before strapping him into a gurney and rolling it into a pit of boiling hot mud. The deep satisfaction of Connery's "Welcome to hell, Blofeld" is far more suitable to a character finally achieving vengeance than anything Bond says in FYEO.

    DAF was designed so that audiences who'd skipped or didn't want to remember OHMSS wouldn't be left out, and it's clear that most of the film pays no attention to its predecessor. And for most of the film Bond and Blofeld don't act as if they have any personal grudge between them.

    The teaser is the exception--it's almost like a bone thrown to audiences who remembered OHMSS. Bond's relentless brutality can't be explained by saying he's miffed that Blofeld got away from him in YOLT. I think DAF's teaser is meant to resolve the personal grudge of OHMSS by getting it out of the way so the camp can take over.

    Agreed with all of this. If FYEO hadn’t resorted to Looney Tunes humor “MEESTA BOOOOOOOOOONNNNDDD” *crash* and stuck with the more somber note at the beginning it would have felt satisfactory. But John Glen can’t help himself but end his PTSs with a joke.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 12,914
    My take is the two graves statement applies strictly to Blofeld, the one seeking revenge. He just couldn't let it go.

    Bond was on the receiving end of that, and was more than ready to serve up justice as later with Locque regarding Ferrara. But probably long ago he decided the dead don't care about vengeance, and until Ernst surfaced with another deadly scheme (or crazy attack) 007 had moved on.

    So I think the adage is consistent there.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2021 Posts: 14,861
    My take is the two graves statement applies strictly to Blofeld, the one seeking revenge. He just couldn't let it go.

    That's a good point, and actually might work to tie the PTS in with the rest of the film thematically (even if I'm not convinced the makers of the film realised it!). I've never thought of that!
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    I doubt the filmmakers gave much thought to that because it’s something Bond says in the actual short story. It was more about being faithful to the source rather than tying something to Blofeld. Because Bond doesn’t really come off as someone that feels like he lost something in that moment.

    Also, the whole intent behind the PTS was originally to introduce a new Bond and showing him go to Tracy’s grave was a swift way to tell audiences that it’s the same man (debunking the Bond is a codename theory). They just kept it after Moore agreed to a fifth film.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 12,914
    Agree @MakeshiftPython, and I do relish the backstory to why the opening relates to McClory and introducing a new actor as Bond not a codename. Bond history.

    Then once it exists on film, there is some making sense of it storywise and relating it to the other missions. So my approach adds to how I enjoy them.

  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,049
    Towards the end of the partnership between Cubby and Harry, they often took turns producing the films. Harry: OHMSS & LALD. Cubby: DAF & TMWTGG. Could have Michael & Barbara been doing something similar? Or could have Michael done this with Cubby? (LTK does feel like his movie). I feel like TWINE, CR & SF feel like Barbara’s movies based on behind the scenes gossip.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    Not really. Cubby was always the top dog during the 80s. Michael took the lead for the Brosnan era, and then Barbara took over for Craig’s run.
  • Posts: 1,394
    Yeah I’ve always seen Bonds jokey one liners and casual attitude towards killing just as acceptance as who he is.He can enjoy himself but he knows he will always be alone.He doesn’t want Melina to end up like him.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,049
    We never had a unwatchable EON Bond film, thankfully. We James Bond fans are lucky: we’ve got countless stories about Bond in all sorts of media: radio, comics, novels and video games. We are truly blessed with the people in charge of James Bond.
  • edited July 2021 Posts: 2,400
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    We never had a unwatchable EON Bond film, thankfully.
    I'm at a point with DAF, TMWTGG and DAD where I'm never going to watch any of the three outside of a franchise rewatch, and in DAF's case, I might skip it even then.
  • Posts: 207
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    We never had a unwatchable EON Bond film, thankfully.
    I'm at a point with DAF, TMWTGG and DAD where I'm never going to watch any of the three outside of a franchise rewatch, and in DAF's case, I might skip it even then.

    Diamonds Are Forever and A View to Kill are tough for me. I'll always watch them when going back through all the movies but I can never see myself putting one of them in just to watch on a slow day.
  • Posts: 2,400
    Zarozzor wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    We never had a unwatchable EON Bond film, thankfully.
    I'm at a point with DAF, TMWTGG and DAD where I'm never going to watch any of the three outside of a franchise rewatch, and in DAF's case, I might skip it even then.

    Diamonds Are Forever and A View to Kill are tough for me. I'll always watch them when going back through all the movies but I can never see myself putting one of them in just to watch on a slow day.

    I should also add that this is the first time EVER - in 20 years of being a Bond fan - that an EON film rates lower than a non-EON film for me. NSNA is, in my eyes, a hair better than DAF even though both are pretty awful.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    Yeah I’d probably take NSNA over DAF too.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    I could never agree to that. DAF is just too fun an entry. It's one of those Bond films I can switch on anytime and enjoy every time.
  • Posts: 1,545
    Agreed ! It was a lark. Connery was back, for one more, and it was meant to be light-hearted and fun and it was just that. At the time, even though it was for one more, it was exciting and entertaining to see Connery play Bond again. Not long before, it would have been so very unlikely...as for any goofs in the film -- are they worse than in plenty of other, even revered Bond films ? The animation for the explosions-by-laser-beam was awful -- just make everything red and everyone scream -- but, well, it was rather brief. If ya didn't like that part, hold on ! Here comes the next one ! Anyway, perhaps part of my enjoyment is based in nostalgia, but that may be so for a number of the films, right ?
  • Posts: 1,394
    I really enjoy DAF.I think MakeshiftPython put it perfectly when he said it was one of those films you just put on and enjoy for what it is.

    As a follow up to OHMSS it fails but it was always intended as a stand-alone Bond adventure.The PTS can be seen as Bond getting revenge for Tracey but I just take it as a follow up to YOLT with Bond trying to track down Blofeld after realising he survived the Volcano explosion.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,377
    DAF and MR are top 10 for me. MR is my favorite Moore film and DAF is my second favorite Connery film only to FRWL
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,921
    I could never agree to that. DAF is just too fun an entry. It's one of those Bond films I can switch on anytime and enjoy every time.

    It's hard for me to dismiss DAF because it has Connery and Barry.

    TMWTGG and AVTAK rank a bit lower but they still have Barry and some decent Moore moments.

    DAD has none of these advantages.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,377
    echo wrote: »
    I could never agree to that. DAF is just too fun an entry. It's one of those Bond films I can switch on anytime and enjoy every time.

    It's hard for me to dismiss DAF because it has Connery and Barry.

    TMWTGG and AVTAK rank a bit lower but they still have Barry and some decent Moore moments.

    DAD has none of these advantages.

    But the former movies don't have a giant solar laser melting an ice hotel
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited July 2021 Posts: 8,009
    echo wrote: »
    I could never agree to that. DAF is just too fun an entry. It's one of those Bond films I can switch on anytime and enjoy every time.

    It's hard for me to dismiss DAF because it has Connery and Barry.

    These are of two of the reasons why it's so disappointing for me, conversely. It has all the elements you could need and some of them (mainly Barry's score) work really well, but overall it's rubbish. I found it a real slog the last time I watched it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    echo wrote: »
    I could never agree to that. DAF is just too fun an entry. It's one of those Bond films I can switch on anytime and enjoy every time.

    It's hard for me to dismiss DAF because it has Connery and Barry.

    TMWTGG and AVTAK rank a bit lower but they still have Barry and some decent Moore moments.

    See, for me there's just so much more to enjoy in AVTAK. DAF looks and feels grotty, and although it does have plenty of excellent lines it just sorts of flops along, looking horrible. I don't think it even has any decent set pieces at all (that buggy chase is possibly the low point: where absolutely nothing happens: they just drive around) and then it all culminates in maybe the most depressing finale of them on that ugly oil rig.
    The score is lovely.
    AVTAK is kind of my comfort food when it comes to Bond: I pretty much love it unconditionally and even the cheesy bits I find totally charming. DAF just doesn't do the same, although it's not the worst film ever made.
  • Posts: 1,879
    mtm wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    I could never agree to that. DAF is just too fun an entry. It's one of those Bond films I can switch on anytime and enjoy every time.

    It's hard for me to dismiss DAF because it has Connery and Barry.

    TMWTGG and AVTAK rank a bit lower but they still have Barry and some decent Moore moments.

    See, for me there's just so much more to enjoy in AVTAK. DAF looks and feels grotty, and although it does have plenty of excellent lines it just sorts of flops along, looking horrible. I don't think it even has any decent set pieces at all (that buggy chase is possibly the low point: where absolutely nothing happens: they just drive around) and then it all culminates in maybe the most depressing finale of them on that ugly oil rig.
    The score is lovely.
    AVTAK is kind of my comfort food when it comes to Bond: I pretty much love it unconditionally and even the cheesy bits I find totally charming. DAF just doesn't do the same, although it's not the worst film ever made.

    I have the complete opposite view. Up front, DAF was the first Bond film I saw in a cinema when it was released, so there's always going to be that. But I just have a good time with it still. The elevator fight alone is vintage Bond and better than anything I can think of in the entirety of AVTAK.

    On the flip side, I saw AVTAK opening weekend and couldn't have been more disappointed. I've always personally found when Bond arrives in San Francisco up until the action moves to the mine it's one of the most boring stretches in any Bond film. Less than stellar Connery is more appealing than less than stellar Moore for me. And I may be one of the only people who finds Barry's AVTAK score possibly his weakest. Love the title song and some of the slower versions of it but overall it's not a fun standalone listening experience and I rarely listen to that score.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    See, I don't get the lift fight. I don't find it all that interesting or amazing.

    I wouldn't disagree about the AVTAK score: DAF is much better on that front. But it's still John Barry so miles above most movies.
  • Posts: 14,798
    Okay it seems that since DAF is very much loved, being critical about it might be controversial. So here's my controversial opinion:
    DAF has two reasons for its popularity: 1)Sean Connery was perceived then as the one and only Bond, and 2)Sean Connery could do no wrong, whatever approach or tone.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 7,999
    I always roll my eyes when I read someone say that Connery looked bored in DAF. Like, how? He’s obviously not playing it the same as he did in his early films, but he’s clearly engaging with the more comical tone of the film that the filmmakers decided on and was by all accounts very professional as an on set collaborator. More so than he was in YOLT.

    I think people make that assumption based on the weight he gained, as if he couldn’t be arsed to lose it. But he only got the role on short notice by a few weeks prior to filming, and wasn’t going to be able to go back to his early 1960s physique so swiftly, especially since he was 40.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    Oh yeah, for all the faults of the films, Connery in DAF and NSNA is properly switched on.
  • edited July 2021 Posts: 631
    I’ve probably watched DAF more often than any of the others. I love its slightly sleazy feel, it’s general air of “will this do?” DAF is often the one I will put on if it’s a lazy afternoon and I just want to watch a Bond film.

    Incidentally I think a fair few of the films are tonally a mess. OP is probably the worst IMO (just in terms of tonal consistency, not the film as a whole) but AVTAK and DAD are not far behind.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,447
    When my wife and I -- we got married three weeks ago ;-) -- were still dating, she asked me once what I wanted for my birthday. I told her I wanted to watch all the Bonds with her, knowing she'd only seen SF. She agreed and I was very happy about that because introducing a film to a "rooky" is the closest thing to going in fresh again yourself.

    DAF was the first of three films I 'prepared' her for. (We skipped CR67 and NSNA for obvious reasons.) The other two are TMWTGG and MR. Knowing the kind of stuff that would pose a challenge for her, DAF got me nervous. Let's just say that early 1970's America, the style, the look, the lingo... is something she's entirely unfamiliar with. I tried to sit her down for Dirty Harry once and she zoned out after about 10 minutes. And then there's Tiffany, the kind of dumb, floozy portrayal of women that she just absolutely resents.

    Well, she looked at me funny when the "Cai--Cai--Cairo" dude's lips didn't move, when a mud bath had suddenly become lethal, when everybody is so geriatrically slow to respond to threads (I mean, Fake Blofeld just basically lets Bond do what he wants), ... And things went down from there. She sighed at the scorpion bite scene, gave a loud "Oh, come oooon!" with the circus scenes, and she wanted it all to just stop as soon as the oil rig is shown.

    But her most effective comment of all, something that's always stuck with me, is that DAF looks like an episode from a TV series. Since DN, everything had looked so wide, so cinematic, so rich in beautiful vistas. Even indoor scenes had almost always been filmed with relatively wide angles. But DAF looks small, like something filmed in your neighbors' house. And I agree with her. Apart from Blofeld's penthouse or where Whyte is being kept, too many places feel like quickly put together sets for the next episode of Dallas.

    So my wife still considers DAF the very worst of the bunch. She had slightly less of a problem with TMWTGG (although she did overall very much struggle with the 'Hamilton trilogy' post OHMSS) but absolutely rejected MR as a Bond film, though not as much as DAF. That was the low point in the series for her. I have since done my best to explain that DAF is not to be viewed through the same goggles as the likes of FRWL, OHMSS, CR or LTK. I have also confessed to her that its many flaws and imperfections are exactly why I like DAF, like cheap, canned food that spreads strong odours and looks like it will poison you, but you still want some every once in a while.

    I guess it takes a certain type of Bond fan, enough background knowledge and context, and a ton of our Community discussions to turn the silliest and arguably cheapest looking of the Bonds into an outrageous yet deliciously enjoyable Bond film.

    And at least our relationship did survive the experience. ;-)
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,009
    First of all @DarthDimi - congratulations on your nuptials. I'm over the moon for yourself and the now Mrs. Dimi.

    Secondly, it seems like you made a great choice as her opinions on DAF mirror my own. ;)
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