Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • edited February 2021 Posts: 7,500
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I can understand not liking DAD for a lot of reasons, but "Pierce should have done a De Niro and lost 50 pounds for an invisible car movie" is not one of them. Good grief!

    Well, maybe then they should also have done away with the invisible car. The sci-fi extravaganza of DAD is another problem but it does not take away from the unbelievable nature of Bond's early predicament. Two wrongs can't make one right.

    What would make it right? The only way to fix it would be to have Bond just not be captured.

    Either make it a serious "edgy" Bond film, where he does get captured and suffered from it (no need to be super realistic and turn him into Winston Smith in the Ministry of Live, just show that it had a toll on him), or go fantasy TSWLM Bond (not my favourite approach by the way) and do away with the emprisonment and torture. In other words, choose what kind of Bond you want and commit to it.

    Exactly. The tonal change is bizarre.

    Apparently the ocean around Hong Kong has some kind of magical healing effect...
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited February 2021 Posts: 8,009
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I can understand not liking DAD for a lot of reasons, but "Pierce should have done a De Niro and lost 50 pounds for an invisible car movie" is not one of them. Good grief!

    Well, maybe then they should also have done away with the invisible car. The sci-fi extravaganza of DAD is another problem but it does not take away from the unbelievable nature of Bond's early predicament. Two wrongs can't make one right.

    What would make it right? The only way to fix it would be to have Bond just not be captured.

    Either make it a serious "edgy" Bond film, where he does get captured and suffered from it (no need to be super realistic and turn him into Winston Smith in the Ministry of Live, just show that it had a toll on him), or go fantasy TSWLM Bond (not my favourite approach by the way) and do away with the emprisonment and torture. In other words, choose what kind of Bond you want and commit to it.

    So yes, the only way to fix it would be to not have Bond captured. Even Bond looking like Winston Smith after 14 months would have been on the optimistic side, I feel.


    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I haven't seen the film in a while, but does the fact that he was in captivity for 14 months have any significance to the rest of the film? I guess it takes some time for Zao to get captured and an exchange negotiated. Other than that, once they realized that Brosnan wasn't going to do a Bale and starve himself half to death (or that they actually didn't really want him to) they easily could have written around that.

    But in the end, this is a prime "we have thought about this not very good movie way too much"-discussion...

    I'm guessing the 14 months timeframe was designed to ensure the September 11th terrorist attacks of 2001 could be factored in as happening since Bond's capture, imprisonment and torture began. I think M says to Bond, "While you were away the world changed." This was the writers' way of acknowledging all that had happened in the real world since the last Bond film was released in late 1999. The War on Terror was in full flow and in a film series such Bond it had to be acknowledged in some way in a 2002 film.

    That, and the film needed to span a considerable amount of time for the Gustav Graves persona to be created and become as revered as he was. Should have been twice as many months though, really. Not that it would have made the film more realistic, alas..
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited February 2021 Posts: 17,727
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I can understand not liking DAD for a lot of reasons, but "Pierce should have done a De Niro and lost 50 pounds for an invisible car movie" is not one of them. Good grief!

    Well, maybe then they should also have done away with the invisible car. The sci-fi extravaganza of DAD is another problem but it does not take away from the unbelievable nature of Bond's early predicament. Two wrongs can't make one right.

    What would make it right? The only way to fix it would be to have Bond just not be captured.

    Either make it a serious "edgy" Bond film, where he does get captured and suffered from it (no need to be super realistic and turn him into Winston Smith in the Ministry of Live, just show that it had a toll on him), or go fantasy TSWLM Bond (not my favourite approach by the way) and do away with the emprisonment and torture. In other words, choose what kind of Bond you want and commit to it.

    Exactly. The tonal change is bizarre.

    It all comes down to the film trying to be "all things to all people" and failing miserably. When it comes to Bond films throwing the kitchen sink at it is rarely the answer when experimenting with different genres and styles of filmmaking. Moonraker did it all so much better (and more entertainingly to boot) some 23 years earlier.
  • I can understand not liking DAD for a lot of reasons, but "Pierce should have done a De Niro and lost 50 pounds for an invisible car movie" is not one of them. Good grief!

    Hear hear. My thoughts exactly!
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I can understand not liking DAD for a lot of reasons, but "Pierce should have done a De Niro and lost 50 pounds for an invisible car movie" is not one of them. Good grief!

    Well, maybe then they should also have done away with the invisible car. The sci-fi extravaganza of DAD is another problem but it does not take away from the unbelievable nature of Bond's early predicament. Two wrongs can't make one right.

    What would make it right? The only way to fix it would be to have Bond just not be captured.

    Either make it a serious "edgy" Bond film, where he does get captured and suffered from it (no need to be super realistic and turn him into Winston Smith in the Ministry of Live, just show that it had a toll on him), or go fantasy TSWLM Bond (not my favourite approach by the way) and do away with the emprisonment and torture. In other words, choose what kind of Bond you want and commit to it.

    So yes, the only way to fix it would be to not have Bond captured. Even Bond looking like Winston Smith after 14 months would have been on the optimistic side, I feel.


    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I haven't seen the film in a while, but does the fact that he was in captivity for 14 months have any significance to the rest of the film? I guess it takes some time for Zao to get captured and an exchange negotiated. Other than that, once they realized that Brosnan wasn't going to do a Bale and starve himself half to death (or that they actually didn't really want him to) they easily could have written around that.

    But in the end, this is a prime "we have thought about this not very good movie way too much"-discussion...

    I'm guessing the 14 months timeframe was designed to ensure the September 11th terrorist attacks of 2001 could be factored in as happening since Bond's capture, imprisonment and torture began. I think M says to Bond, "While you were away the world changed." This was the writers' way of acknowledging all that had happened in the real world since the last Bond film was released in late 1999. The War on Terror was in full flow and in a film series such Bond it had to be acknowledged in some way in a 2002 film.

    That, and the film needed to span a considerable amount of time for the Gustav Graves persona to be created and become as revered as he was. Should have been twice as many months though, really. Not that it would have made the film more realistic, alas..

    Duh. I really missed the boat on that one. That is indeed a pretty good reason for the timeframe :-)
    The 9/11 is also pretty interesting.
    Maybe they should rather have taken inspiration from the opening chapters of TMWTGG. Keep the PTS, but then Bond just suddenly shows up in London years later. MI6 have to figure out, if it really is him (like in the film) and where his loyalties lie. Would need a damn good explanation for how he got out that isn't just, well he was brainwashed and sent to kill M, but then we brainwashed him back.
    Anyway. The film has been in the can for a good 20 years. I doubt they will change the script now 🤣.
  • Posts: 1,394
    Looking at the last few pages,it seems this thread has been derailed into yet another '' DAD sucks and so does Brosnan '' thread.I know there are few members here that really dislike Brosnan and his era but come on.

    In an effort to get this thread back on track,heres a controversial opinion,NTTD will be the last Bond movie released exclusively to theaters ( And there is a question mark arou nd even that ).By the next time a new Bond film is released post NTTD ( Around 2028 by my estimate the way things are going ), it will release exclusively in theaters and streaming services simultaneously like WB's current HBO MAX method.

    Oh and there will be no physical release of the film because at that point,physical media will be dead.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    I think the only way that happens is if MGM is bought by Netflix. Without any real knowledge of the matter, I feel like every other player is interested in returning to the event cinematic experience as a huge moneymaker. Sure, they want to get people into their platforms, but I still believe cinematic releases make them more money per film per person.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,250
    royale65 wrote: »
    Same as the CGI glacial tsunami para-sailing--Brosnan's abdomen simply shouldn't have been presented on screen.

    He looked great everywhere else. Poor judgment on the part of the filmmakers.

    Maybe they should have GGI'd his Guinness belly away?

    They supposedly did touch-ups (I was told that he had “moobs” that needed taking care of and his waist-line).
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 17,727
    peter wrote: »
    royale65 wrote: »
    Same as the CGI glacial tsunami para-sailing--Brosnan's abdomen simply shouldn't have been presented on screen.

    He looked great everywhere else. Poor judgment on the part of the filmmakers.

    Maybe they should have GGI'd his Guinness belly away?

    They supposedly did touch-ups (I was told that he had “moobs” that needed taking care of and his waist-line).

    That's very interesting. Never heard that before. It still seems to not have been enough for some of the posters on this thread, however! :)
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,250
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    royale65 wrote: »
    Same as the CGI glacial tsunami para-sailing--Brosnan's abdomen simply shouldn't have been presented on screen.

    He looked great everywhere else. Poor judgment on the part of the filmmakers.

    Maybe they should have GGI'd his Guinness belly away?

    They supposedly did touch-ups (I was told that he had “moobs” that needed taking care of and his waist-line).

    That's very interesting. Never heard that before. It still seems to not have been enough for some of the posters on this thread, however! :)

    Just repeating what I was told by a member who worked on that film (so being the messenger, I hope I don’t get shot!)!
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Looking at the last few pages,it seems this thread has been derailed into yet another '' DAD sucks and so does Brosnan '' thread.I know there are few members here that really dislike Brosnan and his era but come on.

    In an effort to get this thread back on track,heres a controversial opinion,NTTD will be the last Bond movie released exclusively to theaters ( And there is a question mark arou nd even that ).By the next time a new Bond film is released post NTTD ( Around 2028 by my estimate the way things are going ), it will release exclusively in theaters and streaming services simultaneously like WB's current HBO MAX method.

    Oh and there will be no physical release of the film because at that point,physical media will be dead.

    The producers love the cinematic experience for their films past, present and future.

    I truly believe that by putting their name on the new game coming out next year, EoN is compromising with gaps in their films, working with new tech and keeping James Bond in the public eye.

    If this game is a hit, I think there will be a quick turn around to get another one out by 2024/25.

    This will give the producers the time and space to formulate what they want from the upcoming film(s), and cast their net to
    find the appropriate man for the job, while having new 007 content out...

    EoN-Bond will be a theatrical release unless cinema is truly dead (and the Middle Kingdom is showing us that that is not the case).

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited February 2021 Posts: 8,009
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    royale65 wrote: »
    Same as the CGI glacial tsunami para-sailing--Brosnan's abdomen simply shouldn't have been presented on screen.

    He looked great everywhere else. Poor judgment on the part of the filmmakers.

    Maybe they should have GGI'd his Guinness belly away?

    They supposedly did touch-ups (I was told that he had “moobs” that needed taking care of and his waist-line).

    That's very interesting. Never heard that before. It still seems to not have been enough for some of the posters on this thread, however! :)

    If it's true, then it's enough for me. Considering none of the posters you're referring to have actually responded to it, yet, your last sentence is a bit silly though! :)
  • Posts: 14,799
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I can understand not liking DAD for a lot of reasons, but "Pierce should have done a De Niro and lost 50 pounds for an invisible car movie" is not one of them. Good grief!

    Well, maybe then they should also have done away with the invisible car. The sci-fi extravaganza of DAD is another problem but it does not take away from the unbelievable nature of Bond's early predicament. Two wrongs can't make one right.

    What would make it right? The only way to fix it would be to have Bond just not be captured.

    Either make it a serious "edgy" Bond film, where he does get captured and suffered from it (no need to be super realistic and turn him into Winston Smith in the Ministry of Live, just show that it had a toll on him), or go fantasy TSWLM Bond (not my favourite approach by the way) and do away with the emprisonment and torture. In other words, choose what kind of Bond you want and commit to it.

    So yes, the only way to fix it would be to not have Bond captured. Even Bond looking like Winston Smith after 14 months would have been on the optimistic side, I feel.


    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I haven't seen the film in a while, but does the fact that he was in captivity for 14 months have any significance to the rest of the film? I guess it takes some time for Zao to get captured and an exchange negotiated. Other than that, once they realized that Brosnan wasn't going to do a Bale and starve himself half to death (or that they actually didn't really want him to) they easily could have written around that.

    But in the end, this is a prime "we have thought about this not very good movie way too much"-discussion...

    I'm guessing the 14 months timeframe was designed to ensure the September 11th terrorist attacks of 2001 could be factored in as happening since Bond's capture, imprisonment and torture began. I think M says to Bond, "While you were away the world changed." This was the writers' way of acknowledging all that had happened in the real world since the last Bond film was released in late 1999. The War on Terror was in full flow and in a film series such Bond it had to be acknowledged in some way in a 2002 film.

    That, and the film needed to span a considerable amount of time for the Gustav Graves persona to be created and become as revered as he was. Should have been twice as many months though, really. Not that it would have made the film more realistic, alas..

    That's another issue: 18 months to create the Gustav Graves persona and be knighted? That's very far fetched. Not as implausible as an invisible car, but pretty terrible in its own right.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited February 2021 Posts: 8,009
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I can understand not liking DAD for a lot of reasons, but "Pierce should have done a De Niro and lost 50 pounds for an invisible car movie" is not one of them. Good grief!

    Well, maybe then they should also have done away with the invisible car. The sci-fi extravaganza of DAD is another problem but it does not take away from the unbelievable nature of Bond's early predicament. Two wrongs can't make one right.

    What would make it right? The only way to fix it would be to have Bond just not be captured.

    Either make it a serious "edgy" Bond film, where he does get captured and suffered from it (no need to be super realistic and turn him into Winston Smith in the Ministry of Live, just show that it had a toll on him), or go fantasy TSWLM Bond (not my favourite approach by the way) and do away with the emprisonment and torture. In other words, choose what kind of Bond you want and commit to it.

    So yes, the only way to fix it would be to not have Bond captured. Even Bond looking like Winston Smith after 14 months would have been on the optimistic side, I feel.


    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I haven't seen the film in a while, but does the fact that he was in captivity for 14 months have any significance to the rest of the film? I guess it takes some time for Zao to get captured and an exchange negotiated. Other than that, once they realized that Brosnan wasn't going to do a Bale and starve himself half to death (or that they actually didn't really want him to) they easily could have written around that.

    But in the end, this is a prime "we have thought about this not very good movie way too much"-discussion...

    I'm guessing the 14 months timeframe was designed to ensure the September 11th terrorist attacks of 2001 could be factored in as happening since Bond's capture, imprisonment and torture began. I think M says to Bond, "While you were away the world changed." This was the writers' way of acknowledging all that had happened in the real world since the last Bond film was released in late 1999. The War on Terror was in full flow and in a film series such Bond it had to be acknowledged in some way in a 2002 film.

    That, and the film needed to span a considerable amount of time for the Gustav Graves persona to be created and become as revered as he was. Should have been twice as many months though, really. Not that it would have made the film more realistic, alas..

    That's another issue: 18 months to create the Gustav Graves persona and be knighted? That's very far fetched. Not as implausible as an invisible car, but pretty terrible in its own right.

    It's clear they were taking inspiration from the Moonraker novel - which is nice of course - however Drax creating a new persona for himself is far more plausible in the timeframe explained in the novel and the fact that it takes place post-war, before the digital evolution. Even in 2002, I doubt Graves would have made it too far.

    Hell, even Anthony Horowitz riffed on Moonraker in his first Alex Rider novel and made it more plausible for the modern day, without sacrificing the idea that the villain isn't really who he says he is.
    I think the only way that happens is if MGM is bought by Netflix. Without any real knowledge of the matter, I feel like every other player is interested in returning to the event cinematic experience as a huge moneymaker. Sure, they want to get people into their platforms, but I still believe cinematic releases make them more money per film per person.

    I think you're right, what happens going forward all depends on who buys MGM. And even at that, I'm sure EON will do what they've always done and aim for cinema releases.

    Is physical media really on the decline? Standard Blu-Ray still seems popular than ever and with the increase in demand for things like 4K Blu-Ray, I'd say it will always be there. I'm not sure if there's a majority of people out there who can stream things in 4K. Combine that with the enduring allure of the cinema experience (I don't care what anyone says, there's plenty of people who still love cinema), and it seems like we're okay for a little while yet. What it will look like in a decade, I don't know...

    So I guess to answer @AstonLotus, it depends on the above and also depends on when the next Bond is made and released.
    peter wrote: »
    I truly believe that by putting their name on the new game coming out next year, EoN is compromising with gaps in their films, working with new tech and keeping James Bond in the public eye.

    If this game is a hit, I think there will be a quick turn around to get another one out by 2024/25.

    If that's the case, then this alone might be a reason for me to get back into gaming, @peter
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited February 2021 Posts: 17,727
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    royale65 wrote: »
    Same as the CGI glacial tsunami para-sailing--Brosnan's abdomen simply shouldn't have been presented on screen.

    He looked great everywhere else. Poor judgment on the part of the filmmakers.

    Maybe they should have GGI'd his Guinness belly away?

    They supposedly did touch-ups (I was told that he had “moobs” that needed taking care of and his waist-line).

    That's very interesting. Never heard that before. It still seems to not have been enough for some of the posters on this thread, however! :)

    If it's true, then it's enough for me. Considering none of the posters you're referring to have actually responded to it, yet, your last sentence is a bit silly though! :)

    No, I was merely using foresight as even though Brosnan had been "nipped and tucked" with CGI in that scene the posters here were still complaining that he looked too well fed. So the fact CGI was used didn't need to be known by them. They still think he's too fat for a POW at that point in the film regardless of whether CGI was used or not.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 5,921
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I can understand not liking DAD for a lot of reasons, but "Pierce should have done a De Niro and lost 50 pounds for an invisible car movie" is not one of them. Good grief!

    Well, maybe then they should also have done away with the invisible car. The sci-fi extravaganza of DAD is another problem but it does not take away from the unbelievable nature of Bond's early predicament. Two wrongs can't make one right.

    What would make it right? The only way to fix it would be to have Bond just not be captured.

    Either make it a serious "edgy" Bond film, where he does get captured and suffered from it (no need to be super realistic and turn him into Winston Smith in the Ministry of Live, just show that it had a toll on him), or go fantasy TSWLM Bond (not my favourite approach by the way) and do away with the emprisonment and torture. In other words, choose what kind of Bond you want and commit to it.

    So yes, the only way to fix it would be to not have Bond captured. Even Bond looking like Winston Smith after 14 months would have been on the optimistic side, I feel.


    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I haven't seen the film in a while, but does the fact that he was in captivity for 14 months have any significance to the rest of the film? I guess it takes some time for Zao to get captured and an exchange negotiated. Other than that, once they realized that Brosnan wasn't going to do a Bale and starve himself half to death (or that they actually didn't really want him to) they easily could have written around that.

    But in the end, this is a prime "we have thought about this not very good movie way too much"-discussion...

    I'm guessing the 14 months timeframe was designed to ensure the September 11th terrorist attacks of 2001 could be factored in as happening since Bond's capture, imprisonment and torture began. I think M says to Bond, "While you were away the world changed." This was the writers' way of acknowledging all that had happened in the real world since the last Bond film was released in late 1999. The War on Terror was in full flow and in a film series such Bond it had to be acknowledged in some way in a 2002 film.

    That, and the film needed to span a considerable amount of time for the Gustav Graves persona to be created and become as revered as he was. Should have been twice as many months though, really. Not that it would have made the film more realistic, alas..

    Exactly! They needed time for the gene therapy.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited February 2021 Posts: 8,009
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    royale65 wrote: »
    Same as the CGI glacial tsunami para-sailing--Brosnan's abdomen simply shouldn't have been presented on screen.

    He looked great everywhere else. Poor judgment on the part of the filmmakers.

    Maybe they should have GGI'd his Guinness belly away?

    They supposedly did touch-ups (I was told that he had “moobs” that needed taking care of and his waist-line).

    That's very interesting. Never heard that before. It still seems to not have been enough for some of the posters on this thread, however! :)

    If it's true, then it's enough for me. Considering none of the posters you're referring to have actually responded to it, yet, your last sentence is a bit silly though! :)

    No, I was merely using foresight as even though Brosnan had been "nipped and tucked" with CGI in that scene the posters here were still complaining that he looked too well fed. So the fact CGI was used didn't need to be known by them. They still think he's too fat for a POW at that point in the film regardless of whether CGI was used or not.

    My apologies, @Dragonpol. I completely misinterpreted your post. Now I'm the silly one!
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited February 2021 Posts: 17,727
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    royale65 wrote: »
    Same as the CGI glacial tsunami para-sailing--Brosnan's abdomen simply shouldn't have been presented on screen.

    He looked great everywhere else. Poor judgment on the part of the filmmakers.

    Maybe they should have GGI'd his Guinness belly away?

    They supposedly did touch-ups (I was told that he had “moobs” that needed taking care of and his waist-line).

    That's very interesting. Never heard that before. It still seems to not have been enough for some of the posters on this thread, however! :)

    If it's true, then it's enough for me. Considering none of the posters you're referring to have actually responded to it, yet, your last sentence is a bit silly though! :)

    No, I was merely using foresight as even though Brosnan had been "nipped and tucked" with CGI in that scene the posters here were still complaining that he looked too well fed. So the fact CGI was used didn't need to be known by them. They still think he's too fat for a POW at that point in the film regardless of whether CGI was used or not.

    My apologies, @Dragonpol. I completely misinterpreted your post. Now I'm the silly one!

    Not to worry, @CraigMooreOHMSS. I got your meaning. It happens to us all. :)
  • AstonLotus wrote: »
    Looking at the last few pages,it seems this thread has been derailed into yet another '' DAD sucks and so does Brosnan '' thread.I know there are few members here that really dislike Brosnan and his era but come on.

    In an effort to get this thread back on track,heres a controversial opinion,NTTD will be the last Bond movie released exclusively to theaters ( And there is a question mark arou nd even that ).By the next time a new Bond film is released post NTTD ( Around 2028 by my estimate the way things are going ), it will release exclusively in theaters and streaming services simultaneously like WB's current HBO MAX method.

    Oh and there will be no physical release of the film because at that point,physical media will be dead.

    Now this is interesting. Would make for a fascinating wager.

    Along similar lines, here's my prediction:

    NTTD will have the highest budget ever (in real dollars) for a Bond film. After this, budgets will shrink.
  • CatchingBulletsCatchingBullets facebook.com/catchingbullets
    Posts: 292
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    They're both really bad. The whistle is far more egregious though because it nearly destroys what was, at the time, one of the best car stunts ever captured on film.

    The moment in OP is over as quickly as it begins. As much as I hate it, I equally hate how much people allow those 4-5 seconds to color their entire opinion about the film (not accusing you of this -- this is more common with like, mainstream critics working for Guardian or something).

    Oh no, absolutely not. I love OP. I would never let that Tarzan yell spoil the fun I'm having with the movie. OP ranks rather high on my list.

    What I hate, though, is this. In all seriousness, some of Roger's Bonds are silly obstacle courses one can only navigate with the endurance of a true Bond fan, yet we all love those movies. But a film like SP is spat on and vilified for its weaker plot, the "brother" angle and, according to some, poor acting, weak action--whatever. My point is that it feels to me, correctly or not, that some "classic" Bonds get away with pretty much everything while the latest entry in the series takes a beating like the new kid in the playground. Hence some of the weirdest rankings ever, including NSNA beating SP and whatnot. Of course, this isn't an exact science, and I'm well aware of that. We all have our opinions. Yet I still cannot shake off the strange feeling that SP is being molested because it smells after the final puffs out of a can of deodorant, while certain films that stink like rotten fish are celebrated because "it has Connery at his best" or "the stunt work was awesome!"

    And I get it, I do. I love all the Bonds, including the most nonsensical ones like DAF, AVTAK, TMWTGG and DAD. I shall proudly defend them whenever they are attacked by outsiders. But oh boy, SP is sometimes treated as the worst thing since Hiroshima, as barely a movie, as some rough cut you wouldn't release even with a shotgun to your head.

    I'm sure it'll get better. Let's just give it some time. QOS took some serious beating too and has since been thoroughly re-evaluated. Still, we're all giving OP a pass despite the clowns, appalling Indian street jokes, horse's asses, tigers, circus acts, monkey suits, wait-who's-got-the-real-egg-now?, crazy Russian generals and more. So do I; the film bloody rocks! Yet poor SP, not too different from the acclaimed SF, is somehow the worst Bond film ever made. It's a strange hysteria which I just don't understand. It makes no sense to me. I don't expect people to call it the best Bond ever made--I mean, come on--but I can't help feeling that different yardsticks are being used...

    SP is boring and no fun whatsoever, and compounds this by including the Blofeld foster brother stuff which is not only stupid but threatens the entire premise of James Bond 007 - that he is a professional employed by the British government dispassionately. That is why it attracts so much hate.


    How does the foster brother thing threaten the idea that Bond is a professional dispassionately employed by the British government?

    That's a good question. My feeling is that Bond getting emotionally involved in a mission is one thing, but him being intimately related to the enemy of humanity takes the impersonal professionalism out of the equation. Many commentators have equated Bond with St George defeating the dragon, going out there to defend us from external enemies. I can't imagine the myth of St George would have the same relevance if the dragon and George were somehow related, or knew each other, or grew up together. (No idea how that would work by the way! lol).

    I hope that makes sense. The appeal of Bond is that he is a professional, not related to the bad guys.

    Put it this way, if Mi6 knew he grew up with Blofeld, then they wouldn't or shouldn't employ Bond to take him down. (obviously in the film this isn't the case).

    You could argue that they shouldn't send him out to get Blofeld after Tracy has been killed. But the films sort of fudge that, don't they? It's not even clear if Bond is avenging Tracy in DAF.

    Well, the answer to the question is "It doesn't at all"!

    You have to remember that this is a series where in the books, M's bridge acquaintance wants to destroy London with a missile, Japanese gods summon Bond to kill his mortal enemy in a massive coincidence, and Bond is set on the trail of Goldfinger first by chance encounter with a character from an old book, and then again by his boss.

    It's a series where his ex-girlfriend married a guy who's gonna start World War 3. And M's best friend's daughter is going to kill millions of people in Istanbul. Where MI6 agents like Trevelyan and Silva apparently become supervillains with some regularity.

    Crazy coincidence and massive personal melodrama have been with the series for quite some time. I actually prefer Spectre's approach of having the goofy mythical and meta quality of just making Blofeld a figure from Bond's past. It's a lot more fun for me than MI6 agents going bad all the time.

    I think Spectre is hated mostly because the internet has made fans whinier and more entitled. Mark O'Connell recently did a big survey of fans, and found QOS, DAD, and SP to be the worst Bond films, which is kind of silly. EON have not suddenly become very bad at making these things. The folks who hate those movies are probably not going to like the next one all that much, or if they do, they won't like the one after that.
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    They're both really bad. The whistle is far more egregious though because it nearly destroys what was, at the time, one of the best car stunts ever captured on film.

    The moment in OP is over as quickly as it begins. As much as I hate it, I equally hate how much people allow those 4-5 seconds to color their entire opinion about the film (not accusing you of this -- this is more common with like, mainstream critics working for Guardian or something).

    Oh no, absolutely not. I love OP. I would never let that Tarzan yell spoil the fun I'm having with the movie. OP ranks rather high on my list.

    What I hate, though, is this. In all seriousness, some of Roger's Bonds are silly obstacle courses one can only navigate with the endurance of a true Bond fan, yet we all love those movies. But a film like SP is spat on and vilified for its weaker plot, the "brother" angle and, according to some, poor acting, weak action--whatever. My point is that it feels to me, correctly or not, that some "classic" Bonds get away with pretty much everything while the latest entry in the series takes a beating like the new kid in the playground. Hence some of the weirdest rankings ever, including NSNA beating SP and whatnot. Of course, this isn't an exact science, and I'm well aware of that. We all have our opinions. Yet I still cannot shake off the strange feeling that SP is being molested because it smells after the final puffs out of a can of deodorant, while certain films that stink like rotten fish are celebrated because "it has Connery at his best" or "the stunt work was awesome!"

    And I get it, I do. I love all the Bonds, including the most nonsensical ones like DAF, AVTAK, TMWTGG and DAD. I shall proudly defend them whenever they are attacked by outsiders. But oh boy, SP is sometimes treated as the worst thing since Hiroshima, as barely a movie, as some rough cut you wouldn't release even with a shotgun to your head.

    I'm sure it'll get better. Let's just give it some time. QOS took some serious beating too and has since been thoroughly re-evaluated. Still, we're all giving OP a pass despite the clowns, appalling Indian street jokes, horse's asses, tigers, circus acts, monkey suits, wait-who's-got-the-real-egg-now?, crazy Russian generals and more. So do I; the film bloody rocks! Yet poor SP, not too different from the acclaimed SF, is somehow the worst Bond film ever made. It's a strange hysteria which I just don't understand. It makes no sense to me. I don't expect people to call it the best Bond ever made--I mean, come on--but I can't help feeling that different yardsticks are being used...

    SP is boring and no fun whatsoever, and compounds this by including the Blofeld foster brother stuff which is not only stupid but threatens the entire premise of James Bond 007 - that he is a professional employed by the British government dispassionately. That is why it attracts so much hate.


    How does the foster brother thing threaten the idea that Bond is a professional dispassionately employed by the British government?

    That's a good question. My feeling is that Bond getting emotionally involved in a mission is one thing, but him being intimately related to the enemy of humanity takes the impersonal professionalism out of the equation. Many commentators have equated Bond with St George defeating the dragon, going out there to defend us from external enemies. I can't imagine the myth of St George would have the same relevance if the dragon and George were somehow related, or knew each other, or grew up together. (No idea how that would work by the way! lol).

    I hope that makes sense. The appeal of Bond is that he is a professional, not related to the bad guys.

    Put it this way, if Mi6 knew he grew up with Blofeld, then they wouldn't or shouldn't employ Bond to take him down. (obviously in the film this isn't the case).

    You could argue that they shouldn't send him out to get Blofeld after Tracy has been killed. But the films sort of fudge that, don't they? It's not even clear if Bond is avenging Tracy in DAF.

    Well, the answer to the question is "It doesn't at all"!

    You have to remember that this is a series where in the books, M's bridge acquaintance wants to destroy London with a missile, Japanese gods summon Bond to kill his mortal enemy in a massive coincidence, and Bond is set on the trail of Goldfinger first by chance encounter with a character from an old book, and then again by his boss.

    It's a series where his ex-girlfriend married a guy who's gonna start World War 3. And M's best friend's daughter is going to kill millions of people in Istanbul. Where MI6 agents like Trevelyan and Silva apparently become supervillains with some regularity.

    Crazy coincidence and massive personal melodrama have been with the series for quite some time. I actually prefer Spectre's approach of having the goofy mythical and meta quality of just making Blofeld a figure from Bond's past. It's a lot more fun for me than MI6 agents going bad all the time.

    I think Spectre is hated mostly because the internet has made fans whinier and more entitled. Mark O'Connell recently did a big survey of fans, and found QOS, DAD, and SP to be the worst Bond films, which is kind of silly. EON have not suddenly become very bad at making these things. The folks who hate those movies are probably not going to like the next one all that much, or if they do, they won't like the one after that.
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    They're both really bad. The whistle is far more egregious though because it nearly destroys what was, at the time, one of the best car stunts ever captured on film.

    The moment in OP is over as quickly as it begins. As much as I hate it, I equally hate how much people allow those 4-5 seconds to color their entire opinion about the film (not accusing you of this -- this is more common with like, mainstream critics working for Guardian or something).

    Oh no, absolutely not. I love OP. I would never let that Tarzan yell spoil the fun I'm having with the movie. OP ranks rather high on my list.

    What I hate, though, is this. In all seriousness, some of Roger's Bonds are silly obstacle courses one can only navigate with the endurance of a true Bond fan, yet we all love those movies. But a film like SP is spat on and vilified for its weaker plot, the "brother" angle and, according to some, poor acting, weak action--whatever. My point is that it feels to me, correctly or not, that some "classic" Bonds get away with pretty much everything while the latest entry in the series takes a beating like the new kid in the playground. Hence some of the weirdest rankings ever, including NSNA beating SP and whatnot. Of course, this isn't an exact science, and I'm well aware of that. We all have our opinions. Yet I still cannot shake off the strange feeling that SP is being molested because it smells after the final puffs out of a can of deodorant, while certain films that stink like rotten fish are celebrated because "it has Connery at his best" or "the stunt work was awesome!"

    And I get it, I do. I love all the Bonds, including the most nonsensical ones like DAF, AVTAK, TMWTGG and DAD. I shall proudly defend them whenever they are attacked by outsiders. But oh boy, SP is sometimes treated as the worst thing since Hiroshima, as barely a movie, as some rough cut you wouldn't release even with a shotgun to your head.

    I'm sure it'll get better. Let's just give it some time. QOS took some serious beating too and has since been thoroughly re-evaluated. Still, we're all giving OP a pass despite the clowns, appalling Indian street jokes, horse's asses, tigers, circus acts, monkey suits, wait-who's-got-the-real-egg-now?, crazy Russian generals and more. So do I; the film bloody rocks! Yet poor SP, not too different from the acclaimed SF, is somehow the worst Bond film ever made. It's a strange hysteria which I just don't understand. It makes no sense to me. I don't expect people to call it the best Bond ever made--I mean, come on--but I can't help feeling that different yardsticks are being used...

    SP is boring and no fun whatsoever, and compounds this by including the Blofeld foster brother stuff which is not only stupid but threatens the entire premise of James Bond 007 - that he is a professional employed by the British government dispassionately. That is why it attracts so much hate.


    How does the foster brother thing threaten the idea that Bond is a professional dispassionately employed by the British government?

    That's a good question. My feeling is that Bond getting emotionally involved in a mission is one thing, but him being intimately related to the enemy of humanity takes the impersonal professionalism out of the equation. Many commentators have equated Bond with St George defeating the dragon, going out there to defend us from external enemies. I can't imagine the myth of St George would have the same relevance if the dragon and George were somehow related, or knew each other, or grew up together. (No idea how that would work by the way! lol).

    I hope that makes sense. The appeal of Bond is that he is a professional, not related to the bad guys.

    Put it this way, if Mi6 knew he grew up with Blofeld, then they wouldn't or shouldn't employ Bond to take him down. (obviously in the film this isn't the case).

    You could argue that they shouldn't send him out to get Blofeld after Tracy has been killed. But the films sort of fudge that, don't they? It's not even clear if Bond is avenging Tracy in DAF.

    I think Spectre is hated mostly because the internet has made fans whinier and more entitled. Mark O'Connell recently did a big survey of fans, and found QOS, DAD, and SP to be the worst Bond films, which is kind of silly. EON have not suddenly become very bad at making these things. The folks who hate those movies are probably not going to like the next one all that much, or if they do, they won't like the one after that.

    It's maybe worthwhile here to note how when you ask movie fans what their favourite Bond films are, their one answer you're canvassing is ignoring 23 or so other 007 films. It's not that everyone said those latter Bonds are poor, it was that people preferred and wanted to name others first.
  • CatchingBulletsCatchingBullets facebook.com/catchingbullets
    Posts: 292
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    They're both really bad. The whistle is far more egregious though because it nearly destroys what was, at the time, one of the best car stunts ever captured on film.

    The moment in OP is over as quickly as it begins. As much as I hate it, I equally hate how much people allow those 4-5 seconds to color their entire opinion about the film (not accusing you of this -- this is more common with like, mainstream critics working for Guardian or something).

    Oh no, absolutely not. I love OP. I would never let that Tarzan yell spoil the fun I'm having with the movie. OP ranks rather high on my list.

    What I hate, though, is this. In all seriousness, some of Roger's Bonds are silly obstacle courses one can only navigate with the endurance of a true Bond fan, yet we all love those movies. But a film like SP is spat on and vilified for its weaker plot, the "brother" angle and, according to some, poor acting, weak action--whatever. My point is that it feels to me, correctly or not, that some "classic" Bonds get away with pretty much everything while the latest entry in the series takes a beating like the new kid in the playground. Hence some of the weirdest rankings ever, including NSNA beating SP and whatnot. Of course, this isn't an exact science, and I'm well aware of that. We all have our opinions. Yet I still cannot shake off the strange feeling that SP is being molested because it smells after the final puffs out of a can of deodorant, while certain films that stink like rotten fish are celebrated because "it has Connery at his best" or "the stunt work was awesome!"

    And I get it, I do. I love all the Bonds, including the most nonsensical ones like DAF, AVTAK, TMWTGG and DAD. I shall proudly defend them whenever they are attacked by outsiders. But oh boy, SP is sometimes treated as the worst thing since Hiroshima, as barely a movie, as some rough cut you wouldn't release even with a shotgun to your head.

    I'm sure it'll get better. Let's just give it some time. QOS took some serious beating too and has since been thoroughly re-evaluated. Still, we're all giving OP a pass despite the clowns, appalling Indian street jokes, horse's asses, tigers, circus acts, monkey suits, wait-who's-got-the-real-egg-now?, crazy Russian generals and more. So do I; the film bloody rocks! Yet poor SP, not too different from the acclaimed SF, is somehow the worst Bond film ever made. It's a strange hysteria which I just don't understand. It makes no sense to me. I don't expect people to call it the best Bond ever made--I mean, come on--but I can't help feeling that different yardsticks are being used...

    SP is boring and no fun whatsoever, and compounds this by including the Blofeld foster brother stuff which is not only stupid but threatens the entire premise of James Bond 007 - that he is a professional employed by the British government dispassionately. That is why it attracts so much hate.


    How does the foster brother thing threaten the idea that Bond is a professional dispassionately employed by the British government?

    That's a good question. My feeling is that Bond getting emotionally involved in a mission is one thing, but him being intimately related to the enemy of humanity takes the impersonal professionalism out of the equation. Many commentators have equated Bond with St George defeating the dragon, going out there to defend us from external enemies. I can't imagine the myth of St George would have the same relevance if the dragon and George were somehow related, or knew each other, or grew up together. (No idea how that would work by the way! lol).

    I hope that makes sense. The appeal of Bond is that he is a professional, not related to the bad guys.

    Put it this way, if Mi6 knew he grew up with Blofeld, then they wouldn't or shouldn't employ Bond to take him down. (obviously in the film this isn't the case).

    You could argue that they shouldn't send him out to get Blofeld after Tracy has been killed. But the films sort of fudge that, don't they? It's not even clear if Bond is avenging Tracy in DAF.

    Well, the answer to the question is "It doesn't at all"!

    You have to remember that this is a series where in the books, M's bridge acquaintance wants to destroy London with a missile, Japanese gods summon Bond to kill his mortal enemy in a massive coincidence, and Bond is set on the trail of Goldfinger first by chance encounter with a character from an old book, and then again by his boss.

    It's a series where his ex-girlfriend married a guy who's gonna start World War 3. And M's best friend's daughter is going to kill millions of people in Istanbul. Where MI6 agents like Trevelyan and Silva apparently become supervillains with some regularity.

    Crazy coincidence and massive personal melodrama have been with the series for quite some time. I actually prefer Spectre's approach of having the goofy mythical and meta quality of just making Blofeld a figure from Bond's past. It's a lot more fun for me than MI6 agents going bad all the time.

    I think Spectre is hated mostly because the internet has made fans whinier and more entitled. Mark O'Connell recently did a big survey of fans, and found QOS, DAD, and SP to be the worst Bond films, which is kind of silly. EON have not suddenly become very bad at making these things. The folks who hate those movies are probably not going to like the next one all that much, or if they do, they won't like the one after that.

    Do you genuinely think that all the Bond fans on here who rate QoS, DAD, and SP so lowly do so because they are entitled and whiny? And not just because they are discerning fans who have honed their opinions through years of watching, reading, and debating?

    Don't think it was O'Connell who did that survey, I think it was someone else. Think they had an anonymous Twitter handle. Unless I missed a different survey.
    It was indeed that bullet catcher who conducted the survey in question - including the scope for forum folk here to get involved.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 8,250
    octofinger wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Looking at the last few pages,it seems this thread has been derailed into yet another '' DAD sucks and so does Brosnan '' thread.I know there are few members here that really dislike Brosnan and his era but come on.

    In an effort to get this thread back on track,heres a controversial opinion,NTTD will be the last Bond movie released exclusively to theaters ( And there is a question mark arou nd even that ).By the next time a new Bond film is released post NTTD ( Around 2028 by my estimate the way things are going ), it will release exclusively in theaters and streaming services simultaneously like WB's current HBO MAX method.

    Oh and there will be no physical release of the film because at that point,physical media will be dead.

    Now this is interesting. Would make for a fascinating wager.

    Along similar lines, here's my prediction:

    NTTD will have the highest budget ever (in real dollars) for a Bond film. After this, budgets will shrink.

    Agreed: the budget will be more conservative based on the new actor (keep it tight, less risk; give him, and the new film every chance at success), and; the recent events/delays and how much money was lost due to the pandemic, and; assuming that NTTD may not make the profits that were originally forecast pre-pandemic. However, if the new 007's film is a huge success, the budget for his follow-up will increase ...
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I can understand not liking DAD for a lot of reasons, but "Pierce should have done a De Niro and lost 50 pounds for an invisible car movie" is not one of them. Good grief!

    Well, maybe then they should also have done away with the invisible car. The sci-fi extravaganza of DAD is another problem but it does not take away from the unbelievable nature of Bond's early predicament. Two wrongs can't make one right.

    What would make it right? The only way to fix it would be to have Bond just not be captured.

    Either make it a serious "edgy" Bond film, where he does get captured and suffered from it (no need to be super realistic and turn him into Winston Smith in the Ministry of Live, just show that it had a toll on him), or go fantasy TSWLM Bond (not my favourite approach by the way) and do away with the emprisonment and torture. In other words, choose what kind of Bond you want and commit to it.

    Exactly.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited February 2021 Posts: 5,921
    SP had the misfortune to follow SF, as well as the Sony leaks. There are other issues (casting, chemistry, the still-shocking underuse of Monica Bellucci). Seriously, the film needed a lot more Bellucci.

    It remains to be seen if SP's reputation will grow in coming years, but I'm hoping NTTD will bolster it.
  • Posts: 14,799
    echo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I can understand not liking DAD for a lot of reasons, but "Pierce should have done a De Niro and lost 50 pounds for an invisible car movie" is not one of them. Good grief!

    Well, maybe then they should also have done away with the invisible car. The sci-fi extravaganza of DAD is another problem but it does not take away from the unbelievable nature of Bond's early predicament. Two wrongs can't make one right.

    What would make it right? The only way to fix it would be to have Bond just not be captured.

    Either make it a serious "edgy" Bond film, where he does get captured and suffered from it (no need to be super realistic and turn him into Winston Smith in the Ministry of Live, just show that it had a toll on him), or go fantasy TSWLM Bond (not my favourite approach by the way) and do away with the emprisonment and torture. In other words, choose what kind of Bond you want and commit to it.

    So yes, the only way to fix it would be to not have Bond captured. Even Bond looking like Winston Smith after 14 months would have been on the optimistic side, I feel.


    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I haven't seen the film in a while, but does the fact that he was in captivity for 14 months have any significance to the rest of the film? I guess it takes some time for Zao to get captured and an exchange negotiated. Other than that, once they realized that Brosnan wasn't going to do a Bale and starve himself half to death (or that they actually didn't really want him to) they easily could have written around that.

    But in the end, this is a prime "we have thought about this not very good movie way too much"-discussion...

    I'm guessing the 14 months timeframe was designed to ensure the September 11th terrorist attacks of 2001 could be factored in as happening since Bond's capture, imprisonment and torture began. I think M says to Bond, "While you were away the world changed." This was the writers' way of acknowledging all that had happened in the real world since the last Bond film was released in late 1999. The War on Terror was in full flow and in a film series such Bond it had to be acknowledged in some way in a 2002 film.

    That, and the film needed to span a considerable amount of time for the Gustav Graves persona to be created and become as revered as he was. Should have been twice as many months though, really. Not that it would have made the film more realistic, alas..

    Exactly! They needed time for the gene therapy.

    And the gene therapy is pure sci-fi. DAD creates one deus ex machina after another.
  • Posts: 7,500
    Ludovico wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I can understand not liking DAD for a lot of reasons, but "Pierce should have done a De Niro and lost 50 pounds for an invisible car movie" is not one of them. Good grief!

    Well, maybe then they should also have done away with the invisible car. The sci-fi extravaganza of DAD is another problem but it does not take away from the unbelievable nature of Bond's early predicament. Two wrongs can't make one right.

    What would make it right? The only way to fix it would be to have Bond just not be captured.

    Either make it a serious "edgy" Bond film, where he does get captured and suffered from it (no need to be super realistic and turn him into Winston Smith in the Ministry of Live, just show that it had a toll on him), or go fantasy TSWLM Bond (not my favourite approach by the way) and do away with the emprisonment and torture. In other words, choose what kind of Bond you want and commit to it.

    So yes, the only way to fix it would be to not have Bond captured. Even Bond looking like Winston Smith after 14 months would have been on the optimistic side, I feel.


    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I haven't seen the film in a while, but does the fact that he was in captivity for 14 months have any significance to the rest of the film? I guess it takes some time for Zao to get captured and an exchange negotiated. Other than that, once they realized that Brosnan wasn't going to do a Bale and starve himself half to death (or that they actually didn't really want him to) they easily could have written around that.

    But in the end, this is a prime "we have thought about this not very good movie way too much"-discussion...

    I'm guessing the 14 months timeframe was designed to ensure the September 11th terrorist attacks of 2001 could be factored in as happening since Bond's capture, imprisonment and torture began. I think M says to Bond, "While you were away the world changed." This was the writers' way of acknowledging all that had happened in the real world since the last Bond film was released in late 1999. The War on Terror was in full flow and in a film series such Bond it had to be acknowledged in some way in a 2002 film.

    That, and the film needed to span a considerable amount of time for the Gustav Graves persona to be created and become as revered as he was. Should have been twice as many months though, really. Not that it would have made the film more realistic, alas..

    Exactly! They needed time for the gene therapy.

    And the gene therapy is pure sci-fi. DAD creates one deus ex machina after another.

    I love how they didn't bother to remove Zao's diamonds before the treatment. It's like they expected genes to somehow remove diamonds from his face ;))
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    edited February 2021 Posts: 737
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    They're both really bad. The whistle is far more egregious though because it nearly destroys what was, at the time, one of the best car stunts ever captured on film.

    The moment in OP is over as quickly as it begins. As much as I hate it, I equally hate how much people allow those 4-5 seconds to color their entire opinion about the film (not accusing you of this -- this is more common with like, mainstream critics working for Guardian or something).

    Oh no, absolutely not. I love OP. I would never let that Tarzan yell spoil the fun I'm having with the movie. OP ranks rather high on my list.

    What I hate, though, is this. In all seriousness, some of Roger's Bonds are silly obstacle courses one can only navigate with the endurance of a true Bond fan, yet we all love those movies. But a film like SP is spat on and vilified for its weaker plot, the "brother" angle and, according to some, poor acting, weak action--whatever. My point is that it feels to me, correctly or not, that some "classic" Bonds get away with pretty much everything while the latest entry in the series takes a beating like the new kid in the playground. Hence some of the weirdest rankings ever, including NSNA beating SP and whatnot. Of course, this isn't an exact science, and I'm well aware of that. We all have our opinions. Yet I still cannot shake off the strange feeling that SP is being molested because it smells after the final puffs out of a can of deodorant, while certain films that stink like rotten fish are celebrated because "it has Connery at his best" or "the stunt work was awesome!"

    And I get it, I do. I love all the Bonds, including the most nonsensical ones like DAF, AVTAK, TMWTGG and DAD. I shall proudly defend them whenever they are attacked by outsiders. But oh boy, SP is sometimes treated as the worst thing since Hiroshima, as barely a movie, as some rough cut you wouldn't release even with a shotgun to your head.

    I'm sure it'll get better. Let's just give it some time. QOS took some serious beating too and has since been thoroughly re-evaluated. Still, we're all giving OP a pass despite the clowns, appalling Indian street jokes, horse's asses, tigers, circus acts, monkey suits, wait-who's-got-the-real-egg-now?, crazy Russian generals and more. So do I; the film bloody rocks! Yet poor SP, not too different from the acclaimed SF, is somehow the worst Bond film ever made. It's a strange hysteria which I just don't understand. It makes no sense to me. I don't expect people to call it the best Bond ever made--I mean, come on--but I can't help feeling that different yardsticks are being used...

    SP is boring and no fun whatsoever, and compounds this by including the Blofeld foster brother stuff which is not only stupid but threatens the entire premise of James Bond 007 - that he is a professional employed by the British government dispassionately. That is why it attracts so much hate.


    How does the foster brother thing threaten the idea that Bond is a professional dispassionately employed by the British government?

    That's a good question. My feeling is that Bond getting emotionally involved in a mission is one thing, but him being intimately related to the enemy of humanity takes the impersonal professionalism out of the equation. Many commentators have equated Bond with St George defeating the dragon, going out there to defend us from external enemies. I can't imagine the myth of St George would have the same relevance if the dragon and George were somehow related, or knew each other, or grew up together. (No idea how that would work by the way! lol).

    I hope that makes sense. The appeal of Bond is that he is a professional, not related to the bad guys.

    Put it this way, if Mi6 knew he grew up with Blofeld, then they wouldn't or shouldn't employ Bond to take him down. (obviously in the film this isn't the case).

    You could argue that they shouldn't send him out to get Blofeld after Tracy has been killed. But the films sort of fudge that, don't they? It's not even clear if Bond is avenging Tracy in DAF.

    Well, the answer to the question is "It doesn't at all"!

    You have to remember that this is a series where in the books, M's bridge acquaintance wants to destroy London with a missile, Japanese gods summon Bond to kill his mortal enemy in a massive coincidence, and Bond is set on the trail of Goldfinger first by chance encounter with a character from an old book, and then again by his boss.

    It's a series where his ex-girlfriend married a guy who's gonna start World War 3. And M's best friend's daughter is going to kill millions of people in Istanbul. Where MI6 agents like Trevelyan and Silva apparently become supervillains with some regularity.

    Crazy coincidence and massive personal melodrama have been with the series for quite some time. I actually prefer Spectre's approach of having the goofy mythical and meta quality of just making Blofeld a figure from Bond's past. It's a lot more fun for me than MI6 agents going bad all the time.

    I think Spectre is hated mostly because the internet has made fans whinier and more entitled. Mark O'Connell recently did a big survey of fans, and found QOS, DAD, and SP to be the worst Bond films, which is kind of silly. EON have not suddenly become very bad at making these things. The folks who hate those movies are probably not going to like the next one all that much, or if they do, they won't like the one after that.

    Do you genuinely think that all the Bond fans on here who rate QoS, DAD, and SP so lowly do so because they are entitled and whiny? And not just because they are discerning fans who have honed their opinions through years of watching, reading, and debating?

    Don't think it was O'Connell who did that survey, I think it was someone else. Think they had an anonymous Twitter handle. Unless I missed a different survey.
    It was indeed that bullet catcher who conducted the survey in question - including the scope for forum folk here to get involved.

    Apologies Mark. There was another poll on Twitter that I thought was being referred to. I didn't see your poll, only the recent one with the photo of people's top five Bonds plus their merchandise.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited February 2021 Posts: 1,664
    A
    Ludovico wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I can understand not liking DAD for a lot of reasons, but "Pierce should have done a De Niro and lost 50 pounds for an invisible car movie" is not one of them. Good grief!

    Well, maybe then they should also have done away with the invisible car. The sci-fi extravaganza of DAD is another problem but it does not take away from the unbelievable nature of Bond's early predicament. Two wrongs can't make one right.

    What would make it right? The only way to fix it would be to have Bond just not be captured.

    Either make it a serious "edgy" Bond film, where he does get captured and suffered from it (no need to be super realistic and turn him into Winston Smith in the Ministry of Live, just show that it had a toll on him), or go fantasy TSWLM Bond (not my favourite approach by the way) and do away with the emprisonment and torture. In other words, choose what kind of Bond you want and commit to it.

    So yes, the only way to fix it would be to not have Bond captured. Even Bond looking like Winston Smith after 14 months would have been on the optimistic side, I feel.


    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I haven't seen the film in a while, but does the fact that he was in captivity for 14 months have any significance to the rest of the film? I guess it takes some time for Zao to get captured and an exchange negotiated. Other than that, once they realized that Brosnan wasn't going to do a Bale and starve himself half to death (or that they actually didn't really want him to) they easily could have written around that.

    But in the end, this is a prime "we have thought about this not very good movie way too much"-discussion...

    I'm guessing the 14 months timeframe was designed to ensure the September 11th terrorist attacks of 2001 could be factored in as happening since Bond's capture, imprisonment and torture began. I think M says to Bond, "While you were away the world changed." This was the writers' way of acknowledging all that had happened in the real world since the last Bond film was released in late 1999. The War on Terror was in full flow and in a film series such Bond it had to be acknowledged in some way in a 2002 film.

    That, and the film needed to span a considerable amount of time for the Gustav Graves persona to be created and become as revered as he was. Should have been twice as many months though, really. Not that it would have made the film more realistic, alas..

    Exactly! They needed time for the gene therapy.

    And the gene therapy is pure sci-fi. DAD creates one deus ex machina after another.

    It's dumb, but it's not a deus ex machina. A deus ex machina is a solution to a problem being solved by a random miracle not really set up by other events in the narrative. Goldfinger kind of has one at the end, and Sharkey saving Bond from Kilifer is pretty close, but DAD doesn't really have any.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited February 2021 Posts: 8,009
    echo wrote: »
    SP had the misfortune to follow SF, as well as the Sony leaks. There are other issues (casting, chemistry, the still-shocking underuse of Monica Bellucci). Seriously, the film needed a lot more Bellucci.

    It remains to be seen if SP's reputation will grow in coming years, but I'm hoping NTTD will bolster it.

    I don't know if I'd necessarily agree it was misfortune, unless we're talking strictly about the leaks which definitely coloured many people's opinion of the film before it even came out.

    However, creatively and conceptually, SF gave them free reign to go and tell any sort of story that they wanted to. It really couldn't have been any more ideal for them going forward. However, the story they chose to tell in SP is fundamentally misguided and dramatically inert. If NTTD manages to retroactively improve it, then that will be quite an astonishing achievement.

    Agree about Bellucci though - more of her rarely makes a film worse. ;)
  • Posts: 14,799
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I can understand not liking DAD for a lot of reasons, but "Pierce should have done a De Niro and lost 50 pounds for an invisible car movie" is not one of them. Good grief!

    Well, maybe then they should also have done away with the invisible car. The sci-fi extravaganza of DAD is another problem but it does not take away from the unbelievable nature of Bond's early predicament. Two wrongs can't make one right.

    What would make it right? The only way to fix it would be to have Bond just not be captured.

    Either make it a serious "edgy" Bond film, where he does get captured and suffered from it (no need to be super realistic and turn him into Winston Smith in the Ministry of Live, just show that it had a toll on him), or go fantasy TSWLM Bond (not my favourite approach by the way) and do away with the emprisonment and torture. In other words, choose what kind of Bond you want and commit to it.

    So yes, the only way to fix it would be to not have Bond captured. Even Bond looking like Winston Smith after 14 months would have been on the optimistic side, I feel.


    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I haven't seen the film in a while, but does the fact that he was in captivity for 14 months have any significance to the rest of the film? I guess it takes some time for Zao to get captured and an exchange negotiated. Other than that, once they realized that Brosnan wasn't going to do a Bale and starve himself half to death (or that they actually didn't really want him to) they easily could have written around that.

    But in the end, this is a prime "we have thought about this not very good movie way too much"-discussion...

    I'm guessing the 14 months timeframe was designed to ensure the September 11th terrorist attacks of 2001 could be factored in as happening since Bond's capture, imprisonment and torture began. I think M says to Bond, "While you were away the world changed." This was the writers' way of acknowledging all that had happened in the real world since the last Bond film was released in late 1999. The War on Terror was in full flow and in a film series such Bond it had to be acknowledged in some way in a 2002 film.

    That, and the film needed to span a considerable amount of time for the Gustav Graves persona to be created and become as revered as he was. Should have been twice as many months though, really. Not that it would have made the film more realistic, alas..

    Exactly! They needed time for the gene therapy.

    And the gene therapy is pure sci-fi. DAD creates one deus ex machina after another.

    I love how they didn't bother to remove Zao's diamonds before the treatment. It's like they expected genes to somehow remove diamonds from his face ;))

    It's also a dead giveaway. M: "Say, 007, this man with scars and diamonds in his skin, is this Zao the North Korean terrorist?" Bond: "No, that must be another one."
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 17,727
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I can understand not liking DAD for a lot of reasons, but "Pierce should have done a De Niro and lost 50 pounds for an invisible car movie" is not one of them. Good grief!

    Well, maybe then they should also have done away with the invisible car. The sci-fi extravaganza of DAD is another problem but it does not take away from the unbelievable nature of Bond's early predicament. Two wrongs can't make one right.

    What would make it right? The only way to fix it would be to have Bond just not be captured.

    Either make it a serious "edgy" Bond film, where he does get captured and suffered from it (no need to be super realistic and turn him into Winston Smith in the Ministry of Live, just show that it had a toll on him), or go fantasy TSWLM Bond (not my favourite approach by the way) and do away with the emprisonment and torture. In other words, choose what kind of Bond you want and commit to it.

    So yes, the only way to fix it would be to not have Bond captured. Even Bond looking like Winston Smith after 14 months would have been on the optimistic side, I feel.


    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I haven't seen the film in a while, but does the fact that he was in captivity for 14 months have any significance to the rest of the film? I guess it takes some time for Zao to get captured and an exchange negotiated. Other than that, once they realized that Brosnan wasn't going to do a Bale and starve himself half to death (or that they actually didn't really want him to) they easily could have written around that.

    But in the end, this is a prime "we have thought about this not very good movie way too much"-discussion...

    I'm guessing the 14 months timeframe was designed to ensure the September 11th terrorist attacks of 2001 could be factored in as happening since Bond's capture, imprisonment and torture began. I think M says to Bond, "While you were away the world changed." This was the writers' way of acknowledging all that had happened in the real world since the last Bond film was released in late 1999. The War on Terror was in full flow and in a film series such Bond it had to be acknowledged in some way in a 2002 film.

    That, and the film needed to span a considerable amount of time for the Gustav Graves persona to be created and become as revered as he was. Should have been twice as many months though, really. Not that it would have made the film more realistic, alas..

    Exactly! They needed time for the gene therapy.

    And the gene therapy is pure sci-fi. DAD creates one deus ex machina after another.

    I love how they didn't bother to remove Zao's diamonds before the treatment. It's like they expected genes to somehow remove diamonds from his face ;))

    It was the scriptwriters at work. Without the diamonds in his face they wagered he wouldn't look as villainous - or as ridiculous. And DAD is a very ridiculous film. I remember Brosnan saying before the film was released that it was going to be a return to a more serious type of Bond film plot. What we actually got of course was DAF II with some ground MR thrown in for good measure.
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