NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - Discuss Hans Zimmer's Score

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  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,449
    Zimmer didn't blatantly rip off Vangelis but given what little time he had to come up with a decent score, I'd say he did very well. I seriously don't think we would have loved it if he had just re-done Vangelis either. I mean, when Ottman bled a lot of Williams' Superman score in his Superman Returns score, some people got all worked up over that; it wasn't original or new enough.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited December 2019 Posts: 8,009
    mtm wrote: »
    Whatever way you want to read it, buddy. That's entirely on you. No condescension here, only nitpicking on the use of an irrevelant hypothetical to prove a point. ;)

    When you say "I appreciate you sticking to your guns though" it feels very much a patronising head-pat: 'no you're wrong you silly little thing, but well done you for trying'. Hope that clears it up for you ;)

    I also wouldn't say it's hypothetical that Barry would give his scores a flavour of the plot of the movie: YOLT is very Far East-tinged in many places.

    You're confusing the Bond "sound", a phrase that I didn't use, with something I've been stressing considerably in my comments; it's possible for a composer to make an unmistakably Bond score while not copying Barry's sound.

    My original point was that he "got as close as we’ve seen to trying to do a Barry score"- I didn't say he had copied him.
    Bond score/Barry sound: in this context there's not much difference. In 1973 there was only the Barry sound when it came to Bond- I don't think George Martin redefined it. Other composers after him did (including Barry himself of course in the 70s and 80s) but here he's very much following the template set up by Barry and Barry alone, adding in a fashionable New Yorky funk and soul taste to suit the movie's plot, and very much taking the lead from McCartney's song (which as a side issue, is probably the most important a song composer has been to the film's score).
    As per my original point, I don't think we've had another composer following Barry's lead quite as closely as he did.


    That is what Martin did. I don't feel he copied Barry sonically at all, but you seem to. That is possibly where your confusion lies. The insistence on only comparing it to Barry's previous six only made it worse. That was something you insisted on, not me. If you're confused, have a read back to what was originally being said before the conversation was muddied.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. In 1972 there were seven James Bond scores you could listen to: if you're going to make an 'unmistakably Bond score' then you're going to draw a bit of inspiration from those. Are you saying he changed it into something new?
    Hamlisch also managed it. I don't particularly like that score, but a lot of it is unmistakably Bond. Same goes for Conti. I didn't like the disco era of scoring, but the structure of the scores was the same as Barry's.

    They did manage it, but you'd really not say that LALD is closer in instrumentation, style, melody to a Barry score than TSWLM? Hamlisch himself dips into a little Barry with the Liparus cue (it even has a little bit of Barry-ish discordance) but that's really the extent of it, giving the rest of the film his own interpretation. I'd say that Martin's interpretation (and I don't want to imply he was rubbish: he was clearly a bit of a genius) was to take the Barry sound, add in a soul and funk flavour, and use a lot of McCartney's song. Later composers did a lot more of their own thing, possibly even because Barry had started to move it away from the 60s style and it had opened up.
    Structure. A word that was repeatedly stressed. Hope this clears it up for you.

    Gee thanks for explaining that in a non-condescending way :D

    I think actually structure is one way he does deviate from Barry a little more. It's much less romantic than a lot of Barry's scores and he introduces his own secondary theme which runs throughout the film (such as in 'Bond to New York') which he uses for a variety of types of scene, not just action or romance, as Barry would use his themes.

    @mtm, you've made a mountain out of a molehill here, mate. If I have to keep explaining a relatively simple point to you then the issue isn't with the point. Sorry man, but the only reason you're having issues here is because you muddied the waters with your own vocabulary, stubbornness and an evident unwillingness to grasp a simple point -
    a point that others have grasped, so it's not like I'm speaking into the void. It feels like you're looking for an argument, only to be the first to be offended soon after. So, I'm going to leave it there. I'm not too fond of having to repeat myself more than once.

    But one last time for good measure....

    Structure over style. That's what's important, I feel. ;)
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Zimmer didn't blatantly rip off Vangelis but given what little time he had to come up with a decent score, I'd say he did very well. I seriously don't think we would have loved it if he had just re-done Vangelis either. I mean, when Ottman bled a lot of Williams' Superman score in his Superman Returns score, some people got all worked up over that; it wasn't original or new enough.

    Wallfisch composed the bulk of 2049, but yes, I'd agree that it was decent. Nothing spectacular but it fit the film well. DUNKIRK was pretty effective also, if a tad grating as an isolated listen.

    Ottman's SUPERMAN RETURNS is massively underrated, I think. Like the film, it seems to have been forgotten.
  • edited December 2019 Posts: 820

    Ottman's SUPERMAN RETURNS is massively underrated, I think. Like the film, it seems to have been forgotten.

    One of my favorite film scores of all time. Such a shame it's lost in the legacy of a film that ended up being so questionable for the brand.

    And as it happens, John Ottman is an extremely nice person. In the midst of that Superman Returns hype leading up to the film, I actually got a chance to correspond briefly with him and found him to be quite open and generous despite the pressures facing him at the time. I was thrilled and proud to see him take an Oscar home years later.

    You want a perfect example of someone who brings freshness and inventiveness to an established franchise while revering (and reprising) the original music and themes at every opportunity where they belong? Look no further than Superman Returns.

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,009
    AgentM72 wrote: »

    Ottman's SUPERMAN RETURNS is massively underrated, I think. Like the film, it seems to have been forgotten.

    One of my favorite film scores of all time. Such a shame it's lost in the legacy of a film that ended up being so questionable for the brand.

    And as it happens, John Ottman is an extremely nice person. In the midst of that Superman Returns hype leading up to the film, I actually got a chance to correspond briefly with him and found him to be quite open and generous despite the pressures facing him at the time. I was thrilled and proud to see him take an Oscar home years later.

    You want a perfect example of someone who brings freshness and inventiveness to an established franchise while revering (and reprising) the original music and themes at every opportunity where they belong? Look no further than Superman Returns.

    Glad to see another fan of the score here, @AgentM72. It is all of the things you say and to me it is as good as the first two scores in many ways. The action material is superb.

    Great story about Ottman too. A lot of people forget he is an Editor, as well.
  • Posts: 820
    AgentM72 wrote: »

    Ottman's SUPERMAN RETURNS is massively underrated, I think. Like the film, it seems to have been forgotten.

    One of my favorite film scores of all time. Such a shame it's lost in the legacy of a film that ended up being so questionable for the brand.

    And as it happens, John Ottman is an extremely nice person. In the midst of that Superman Returns hype leading up to the film, I actually got a chance to correspond briefly with him and found him to be quite open and generous despite the pressures facing him at the time. I was thrilled and proud to see him take an Oscar home years later.

    You want a perfect example of someone who brings freshness and inventiveness to an established franchise while revering (and reprising) the original music and themes at every opportunity where they belong? Look no further than Superman Returns.

    Glad to see another fan of the score here, @AgentM72. It is all of the things you say and to me it is as good as the first two scores in many ways. The action material is superb.

    Great story about Ottman too. A lot of people forget he is an Editor, as well.

    Yep. A phenomenal combination of skills for a composer to have.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited December 2019 Posts: 23,449
    I'm glad there's an Ottman fan club here. I'm in that league too, gents.

    A few years ago, however, I dared to complement Ottman's SR score and got severely chastised for it by a member who called it unoriginal, uninspired and derivative. He wasn't alone in that opinion. Others came too; I was indirectly accused of being poor taste.

    And that is also why with the Bonds, there's no way we can ever be unanimous about the music anymore, unless in the most negative of ways. Even if John Barry himself resurrected and gave us his best score ever, some would yell, "bring something fresh!, we've heard it all before". You lose if you try something new, and you lose if you bring the old stuff. Striking the right balance has become a tough trick to pull. I welcomed Romer because I figured that since he's still somewhat new to the game, he would probably labour hard to achieve said balance.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,009
    100%, @DarthDimi

    Ottman is a very reliable, smart composer who is often forgotten by many when it comes to listing some of the best working in Hollywood today. He's got a lot of range too - he can seemingly slip into any genre pretty easily.

    As I said a few pages back before I was sidetracked, it's nice to see so many people are still so passionate about Bond music. I had hope for Romer but of course whatever he was doing wasn't to the filmmakers tastes. One thing I will say though, is that if the reports of the music being too "out there" are true, then that to me means that Romer wasn't simply going for the obvious and the score likely wasn't generic as some feared it would be. Whether it was too far the other direction now is something we'll likely never know.

  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited December 2019 Posts: 4,247
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I'm glad there's an Ottman fan club here. I'm in that league too, gents.

    A few years ago, however, I dared to complement Ottman's SR score and got severely chastised for it by a member who called it unoriginal, uninspired and derivative. He wasn't alone in that opinion. Others came too; I was indirectly accused of being poor taste.

    And that is also why with the Bonds, there's no way we can ever be unanimous about the music anymore, unless in the most negative of ways. Even if John Barry himself resurrected and gave us his best score ever, some would yell, "bring something fresh!, we've heard it all before". You lose if you try something new, and you lose if you bring the old stuff. Striking the right balance has become a tough trick to pull. I welcomed Romer because I figured that since he's still somewhat new to the game, he would probably labour hard to achieve said balance.

    Yeah,true...I think it's all about respecting preferences. Which in this case is film music. I've said am a Zimmer fan & would want him to score it....since Arnold isn't returning. Another guy might say he prefers Danny elfman to score it. The fact that I can't see Danny elfman doing it, doesn't mean the guy has poor taste. it's what he likes. Yes, we can have an amicable furore....but nothing resembling discord.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited December 2019 Posts: 4,247
    100%, @DarthDimi

    Ottman is a very reliable, smart composer who is often forgotten by many when it comes to listing some of the best working in Hollywood today. He's got a lot of range too - he can seemingly slip into any genre pretty easily.

    As I said a few pages back before I was sidetracked, it's nice to see so many people are still so passionate about Bond music. I had hope for Romer but of course whatever he was doing wasn't to the filmmakers tastes. One thing I will say though, is that if the reports of the music being too "out there" are true, then that to me means that Romer wasn't simply going for the obvious and the score likely wasn't generic as some feared it would be. Whether it was too far the other direction now is something we'll likely never know.

    Indeed....I think Romer wasn't going for the obvious. Coz most of Romer's scores are quite unorthodox. There are only few of Romer's tracks that are quite linear when listening to them. A good example is 'Better Look Me In The Eyes' from Beasts Of No Nation (Possibly his best piece yet) and a few others from his other scores. Romer just prefers going for distorted Sounds in his scores.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,009
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    100%, @DarthDimi

    Ottman is a very reliable, smart composer who is often forgotten by many when it comes to listing some of the best working in Hollywood today. He's got a lot of range too - he can seemingly slip into any genre pretty easily.

    As I said a few pages back before I was sidetracked, it's nice to see so many people are still so passionate about Bond music. I had hope for Romer but of course whatever he was doing wasn't to the filmmakers tastes. One thing I will say though, is that if the reports of the music being too "out there" are true, then that to me means that Romer wasn't simply going for the obvious and the score likely wasn't generic as some feared it would be. Whether it was too far the other direction now is something we'll likely never know.

    Indeed....I think Romer wasn't going for the obvious. Coz most of Romer's scores are quite unorthodox. There are only few of Romer's tracks that are quite linear when listening to them. A good example is 'Better Look Me In The Eyes' from Beasts Of No Nation (Possibly his best piece yet) and a few others from his other scores. Romer just prefers going for distorted Sounds in his scores.

    I like that score a lot and it worked wonderfully in the film.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited December 2019 Posts: 4,247
    100%, @DarthDimi

    Ottman is a very reliable, smart composer who is often forgotten by many when it comes to listing some of the best working in Hollywood today. He's got a lot of range too - he can seemingly slip into any genre pretty easily.

    As I said a few pages back before I was sidetracked, it's nice to see so many people are still so passionate about Bond music. I had hope for Romer but of course whatever he was doing wasn't to the filmmakers tastes. One thing I will say though, is that if the reports of the music being too "out there" are true, then that to me means that Romer wasn't simply going for the obvious and the score likely wasn't generic as some feared it would be. Whether it was too far the other direction now is something we'll likely never know.

    Indeed....I think Romer wasn't going for the obvious. Coz most of Romer's scores are quite unorthodox. There are only few of Romer's tracks that are quite linear when listening to them. Romer just prefers going for distorted Sounds in his Scores .
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    100%, @DarthDimi

    Ottman is a very reliable, smart composer who is often forgotten by many when it comes to listing some of the best working in Hollywood today. He's got a lot of range too - he can seemingly slip into any genre pretty easily.

    As I said a few pages back before I was sidetracked, it's nice to see so many people are still so passionate about Bond music. I had hope for Romer but of course whatever he was doing wasn't to the filmmakers tastes. One thing I will say though, is that if the reports of the music being too "out there" are true, then that to me means that Romer wasn't simply going for the obvious and the score likely wasn't generic as some feared it would be. Whether it was too far the other direction now is something we'll likely never know.

    Indeed....I think Romer wasn't going for the obvious. Coz most of Romer's scores are quite unorthodox. There are only few of Romer's tracks that are quite linear when listening to them. A good example is 'Better Look Me In The Eyes' from Beasts Of No Nation (Possibly his best piece yet) and a few others from his other scores. Romer just prefers going for distorted Sounds in his scores.

    I like that score a lot and it worked wonderfully in the film.

    Yeah....me too. I like the score a lot as well & it really did suit the film. And possibly his best score. Just that some of his other scores sound very specific. And can only suit certain film types. Possibly well-suited for only indie films.
  • RyanRyan Canada
    Posts: 692
    I wonder if ultimately they didn't want another GoldenEye scenario where they brought in John Altman at the eleventh hour to rescore the archives and tank chase. If they realized early enough that they didn't like the musical direction then perhaps it was best to cut losses now and give another composer a go.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    When Zimmer composed The Lone Ranger we heard Ennio morricone's style & Gioachino Rossini's William Tell's Overture from the Old lone ranger TV series in it. Now, if He composes Bond we can at least expect him to follow Barry's style....even if Zimmer maintains his own style. coz as we heard from Blade Runner 2049, he still retained Vangelis' style.
    WHAT?? There is as much Vangelis in BR 2049 as there is Barry in LTK.

    Yeah, of course...that's my point. Zimmer paid Homage to Vangelis in Blade Runner 2049....but Michael Kamen's score in LTK sounding like Barry?....Ummmm, I don't know...am not too sure it does. I believe fans really missed Barry in LTK. After Barry delivered one of the best Bond scores in TLD.

    Yes I think you're right- Barry was missed after the lovely TLD score, but in retrospect I quite like the LTK score. It's kind of maximum Kamen and his scores are a lot of fun, and there are some really nice bits to it and gives the film a kind of dangerous-feeling edge. The suite with all of the best bits from the film is an enjoyable listen.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 2019 Posts: 14,861
    mtm wrote: »
    Whatever way you want to read it, buddy. That's entirely on you. No condescension here, only nitpicking on the use of an irrevelant hypothetical to prove a point. ;)

    When you say "I appreciate you sticking to your guns though" it feels very much a patronising head-pat: 'no you're wrong you silly little thing, but well done you for trying'. Hope that clears it up for you ;)

    I also wouldn't say it's hypothetical that Barry would give his scores a flavour of the plot of the movie: YOLT is very Far East-tinged in many places.

    You're confusing the Bond "sound", a phrase that I didn't use, with something I've been stressing considerably in my comments; it's possible for a composer to make an unmistakably Bond score while not copying Barry's sound.

    My original point was that he "got as close as we’ve seen to trying to do a Barry score"- I didn't say he had copied him.
    Bond score/Barry sound: in this context there's not much difference. In 1973 there was only the Barry sound when it came to Bond- I don't think George Martin redefined it. Other composers after him did (including Barry himself of course in the 70s and 80s) but here he's very much following the template set up by Barry and Barry alone, adding in a fashionable New Yorky funk and soul taste to suit the movie's plot, and very much taking the lead from McCartney's song (which as a side issue, is probably the most important a song composer has been to the film's score).
    As per my original point, I don't think we've had another composer following Barry's lead quite as closely as he did.


    That is what Martin did. I don't feel he copied Barry sonically at all, but you seem to. That is possibly where your confusion lies. The insistence on only comparing it to Barry's previous six only made it worse. That was something you insisted on, not me. If you're confused, have a read back to what was originally being said before the conversation was muddied.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. In 1972 there were seven James Bond scores you could listen to: if you're going to make an 'unmistakably Bond score' then you're going to draw a bit of inspiration from those. Are you saying he changed it into something new?
    Hamlisch also managed it. I don't particularly like that score, but a lot of it is unmistakably Bond. Same goes for Conti. I didn't like the disco era of scoring, but the structure of the scores was the same as Barry's.

    They did manage it, but you'd really not say that LALD is closer in instrumentation, style, melody to a Barry score than TSWLM? Hamlisch himself dips into a little Barry with the Liparus cue (it even has a little bit of Barry-ish discordance) but that's really the extent of it, giving the rest of the film his own interpretation. I'd say that Martin's interpretation (and I don't want to imply he was rubbish: he was clearly a bit of a genius) was to take the Barry sound, add in a soul and funk flavour, and use a lot of McCartney's song. Later composers did a lot more of their own thing, possibly even because Barry had started to move it away from the 60s style and it had opened up.
    Structure. A word that was repeatedly stressed. Hope this clears it up for you.

    Gee thanks for explaining that in a non-condescending way :D

    I think actually structure is one way he does deviate from Barry a little more. It's much less romantic than a lot of Barry's scores and he introduces his own secondary theme which runs throughout the film (such as in 'Bond to New York') which he uses for a variety of types of scene, not just action or romance, as Barry would use his themes.

    @mtm, you've made a mountain out of a molehill here, mate. If I have to keep explaining a relatively simple point to you then the issue isn't with the point. Sorry man, but the only reason you're having issues here is because you muddied the waters with your own vocabulary, stubbornness and an evident unwillingness to grasp a simple point -
    a point that others have grasped, so it's not like I'm speaking into the void. It feels like you're looking for an argument, only to be the first to be offended soon after. So, I'm going to leave it there. I'm not too fond of having to repeat myself more than once.

    But one last time for good measure....

    Structure over style. That's what's important, I feel. ;)

    I think when you're having to ignore what I'm saying and then call me lots of names instead of responding then you're kind of making my point for me, mate ;)
    If you feel structure over style is more important then that's great and I respect it: it's just not what we're actually discussing. I'm glad you're leaving it though because I feel you're perhaps not grasping what I'm saying at all. Never mind.
    AgentM72 wrote: »

    Ottman's SUPERMAN RETURNS is massively underrated, I think. Like the film, it seems to have been forgotten.

    One of my favorite film scores of all time. Such a shame it's lost in the legacy of a film that ended up being so questionable for the brand.

    And as it happens, John Ottman is an extremely nice person. In the midst of that Superman Returns hype leading up to the film, I actually got a chance to correspond briefly with him and found him to be quite open and generous despite the pressures facing him at the time. I was thrilled and proud to see him take an Oscar home years later.

    You want a perfect example of someone who brings freshness and inventiveness to an established franchise while revering (and reprising) the original music and themes at every opportunity where they belong? Look no further than Superman Returns.

    I dunno: I find it quite frustrating when he keeps flirting with those themes but barely actually using them! :) The bit where the love theme almost fully develops and then just kind of wilts away... I mean I know it's kind of matching what's on screen, but because it's such a lovely orchestration and full recording it always made me sad when it never got a full play!
    It's a decent score but I think Ken Thorne does a pretty good job if it's revering original themes you're after. That sort of Prokofiev-ish bit is rather great and quite funny! :)
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited December 2019 Posts: 4,247
    If one listens to Henry Jackman's 'Magneto's theme'. One might think Jackman was auditioning to score a Bond film. And to crown it all, Michael Fassbender seemed to be Playing an unofficial Bond(almost like Sean Connery) in X-men First Class & Jackman took note of that & it shows in that piece. And Jackman is a RCP Composer & he's also English.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited December 2019 Posts: 4,247
    mtm wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    boldfinger wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    When Zimmer composed The Lone Ranger we heard Ennio morricone's style & Gioachino Rossini's William Tell's Overture from the Old lone ranger TV series in it. Now, if He composes Bond we can at least expect him to follow Barry's style....even if Zimmer maintains his own style. coz as we heard from Blade Runner 2049, he still retained Vangelis' style.
    WHAT?? There is as much Vangelis in BR 2049 as there is Barry in LTK.

    Yeah, of course...that's my point. Zimmer paid Homage to Vangelis in Blade Runner 2049....but Michael Kamen's score in LTK sounding like Barry?....Ummmm, I don't know...am not too sure it does. I believe fans really missed Barry in LTK. After Barry delivered one of the best Bond scores in TLD.

    Yes I think you're right- Barry was missed after the lovely TLD score, but in retrospect I quite like the LTK score. It's kind of maximum Kamen and his scores are a lot of fun, and there are some really nice bits to it and gives the film a kind of dangerous-feeling edge. The suite with all of the best bits from the film is an enjoyable listen.

    Exactly....in retrospect. The score actually grow on me. I wasn't a fan at first....and like you said Kamen was obviously going for that dangerous, edgy-feel. Possibly to suit Dalton's ire & the ominous atmosphere in the film.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 14,861
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    If one listens to Henry Jackman's 'Magneto's theme'. One might think Jackman was auditioning to score a Bond film. And to crown it all, Michael Fassbender seemed to be Playing an unofficial Bond(almost like Sean Connery) in X-men First Class & Jackman took note of that & it shows in that piece. And Jackman is a RCP Composer & he's also English.

    I've never found the theme especially Bond-y but it is very enjoyable. I'll have another listen. It's quite a fun soundtrack, that one; shame the Marvels rarely go as interesting.

    I guess speaking of Marvel people, I'd quite like Ludwig Goransson. Black Panther didn't do much for me, but I love the Bill Conti sound he uses on Creed and the Mandalorian. That'd be fun!
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited December 2019 Posts: 8,009
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Whatever way you want to read it, buddy. That's entirely on you. No condescension here, only nitpicking on the use of an irrevelant hypothetical to prove a point. ;)

    When you say "I appreciate you sticking to your guns though" it feels very much a patronising head-pat: 'no you're wrong you silly little thing, but well done you for trying'. Hope that clears it up for you ;)

    I also wouldn't say it's hypothetical that Barry would give his scores a flavour of the plot of the movie: YOLT is very Far East-tinged in many places.

    You're confusing the Bond "sound", a phrase that I didn't use, with something I've been stressing considerably in my comments; it's possible for a composer to make an unmistakably Bond score while not copying Barry's sound.

    My original point was that he "got as close as we’ve seen to trying to do a Barry score"- I didn't say he had copied him.
    Bond score/Barry sound: in this context there's not much difference. In 1973 there was only the Barry sound when it came to Bond- I don't think George Martin redefined it. Other composers after him did (including Barry himself of course in the 70s and 80s) but here he's very much following the template set up by Barry and Barry alone, adding in a fashionable New Yorky funk and soul taste to suit the movie's plot, and very much taking the lead from McCartney's song (which as a side issue, is probably the most important a song composer has been to the film's score).
    As per my original point, I don't think we've had another composer following Barry's lead quite as closely as he did.


    That is what Martin did. I don't feel he copied Barry sonically at all, but you seem to. That is possibly where your confusion lies. The insistence on only comparing it to Barry's previous six only made it worse. That was something you insisted on, not me. If you're confused, have a read back to what was originally being said before the conversation was muddied.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. In 1972 there were seven James Bond scores you could listen to: if you're going to make an 'unmistakably Bond score' then you're going to draw a bit of inspiration from those. Are you saying he changed it into something new?
    Hamlisch also managed it. I don't particularly like that score, but a lot of it is unmistakably Bond. Same goes for Conti. I didn't like the disco era of scoring, but the structure of the scores was the same as Barry's.

    They did manage it, but you'd really not say that LALD is closer in instrumentation, style, melody to a Barry score than TSWLM? Hamlisch himself dips into a little Barry with the Liparus cue (it even has a little bit of Barry-ish discordance) but that's really the extent of it, giving the rest of the film his own interpretation. I'd say that Martin's interpretation (and I don't want to imply he was rubbish: he was clearly a bit of a genius) was to take the Barry sound, add in a soul and funk flavour, and use a lot of McCartney's song. Later composers did a lot more of their own thing, possibly even because Barry had started to move it away from the 60s style and it had opened up.
    Structure. A word that was repeatedly stressed. Hope this clears it up for you.

    Gee thanks for explaining that in a non-condescending way :D

    I think actually structure is one way he does deviate from Barry a little more. It's much less romantic than a lot of Barry's scores and he introduces his own secondary theme which runs throughout the film (such as in 'Bond to New York') which he uses for a variety of types of scene, not just action or romance, as Barry would use his themes.

    @mtm, you've made a mountain out of a molehill here, mate. If I have to keep explaining a relatively simple point to you then the issue isn't with the point. Sorry man, but the only reason you're having issues here is because you muddied the waters with your own vocabulary, stubbornness and an evident unwillingness to grasp a simple point -
    a point that others have grasped, so it's not like I'm speaking into the void. It feels like you're looking for an argument, only to be the first to be offended soon after. So, I'm going to leave it there. I'm not too fond of having to repeat myself more than once.

    But one last time for good measure....

    Structure over style. That's what's important, I feel. ;)

    I think when you're having to ignore what I'm saying and then call me lots of names then you're kind of making my point for me, mate ;)
    If you feel structure over style is more important then that's great and I respect it: it's just not what we're actually discussing.

    What names have I called you? I'd like a direct quote of anything inappropriate please. If not, feel free to DM me. I'll happily apologise if you can make a decent case as to how you've been unfairly treated. Anything I ignored from you was because it was irrevelant, which brings me to the most important part of the conversation and something you repeatedly keep overlooking, perhaps out of convenience....

    I'm not sure what it was you were discussing, and it doesn't look like you do either. Nor do you seemingly have any point to make. But structure over style was what I was discussing and it has been since the beginning. The only one who wasn't discussing it was you, when you went off on this bizarre tangent. Again, if you would care to go back and actually read the comments, THAT was the original point. It's truly baffling that I have to keep saying this. Other members have had no trouble with it, so..... ;)
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    If one listens to Henry Jackman's 'Magneto's theme'. One might think Jackman was auditioning to score a Bond film. And to crown it all, Michael Fassbender seemed to be Playing an unofficial Bond(almost like Sean Connery) in X-men First Class & Jackman took note of that & it shows in that piece. And Jackman is a RCP Composer & he's also English.

    Don't forget about KINGSMAN: THE SECRET SERVICE for Jackman's ability to craft a ballsy, spy-infused action score. He'd be a decent choice too!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 2019 Posts: 14,861
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Whatever way you want to read it, buddy. That's entirely on you. No condescension here, only nitpicking on the use of an irrevelant hypothetical to prove a point. ;)

    When you say "I appreciate you sticking to your guns though" it feels very much a patronising head-pat: 'no you're wrong you silly little thing, but well done you for trying'. Hope that clears it up for you ;)

    I also wouldn't say it's hypothetical that Barry would give his scores a flavour of the plot of the movie: YOLT is very Far East-tinged in many places.

    You're confusing the Bond "sound", a phrase that I didn't use, with something I've been stressing considerably in my comments; it's possible for a composer to make an unmistakably Bond score while not copying Barry's sound.

    My original point was that he "got as close as we’ve seen to trying to do a Barry score"- I didn't say he had copied him.
    Bond score/Barry sound: in this context there's not much difference. In 1973 there was only the Barry sound when it came to Bond- I don't think George Martin redefined it. Other composers after him did (including Barry himself of course in the 70s and 80s) but here he's very much following the template set up by Barry and Barry alone, adding in a fashionable New Yorky funk and soul taste to suit the movie's plot, and very much taking the lead from McCartney's song (which as a side issue, is probably the most important a song composer has been to the film's score).
    As per my original point, I don't think we've had another composer following Barry's lead quite as closely as he did.


    That is what Martin did. I don't feel he copied Barry sonically at all, but you seem to. That is possibly where your confusion lies. The insistence on only comparing it to Barry's previous six only made it worse. That was something you insisted on, not me. If you're confused, have a read back to what was originally being said before the conversation was muddied.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. In 1972 there were seven James Bond scores you could listen to: if you're going to make an 'unmistakably Bond score' then you're going to draw a bit of inspiration from those. Are you saying he changed it into something new?
    Hamlisch also managed it. I don't particularly like that score, but a lot of it is unmistakably Bond. Same goes for Conti. I didn't like the disco era of scoring, but the structure of the scores was the same as Barry's.

    They did manage it, but you'd really not say that LALD is closer in instrumentation, style, melody to a Barry score than TSWLM? Hamlisch himself dips into a little Barry with the Liparus cue (it even has a little bit of Barry-ish discordance) but that's really the extent of it, giving the rest of the film his own interpretation. I'd say that Martin's interpretation (and I don't want to imply he was rubbish: he was clearly a bit of a genius) was to take the Barry sound, add in a soul and funk flavour, and use a lot of McCartney's song. Later composers did a lot more of their own thing, possibly even because Barry had started to move it away from the 60s style and it had opened up.
    Structure. A word that was repeatedly stressed. Hope this clears it up for you.

    Gee thanks for explaining that in a non-condescending way :D

    I think actually structure is one way he does deviate from Barry a little more. It's much less romantic than a lot of Barry's scores and he introduces his own secondary theme which runs throughout the film (such as in 'Bond to New York') which he uses for a variety of types of scene, not just action or romance, as Barry would use his themes.

    @mtm, you've made a mountain out of a molehill here, mate. If I have to keep explaining a relatively simple point to you then the issue isn't with the point. Sorry man, but the only reason you're having issues here is because you muddied the waters with your own vocabulary, stubbornness and an evident unwillingness to grasp a simple point -
    a point that others have grasped, so it's not like I'm speaking into the void. It feels like you're looking for an argument, only to be the first to be offended soon after. So, I'm going to leave it there. I'm not too fond of having to repeat myself more than once.

    But one last time for good measure....

    Structure over style. That's what's important, I feel. ;)

    I think when you're having to ignore what I'm saying and then call me lots of names then you're kind of making my point for me, mate ;)
    If you feel structure over style is more important then that's great and I respect it: it's just not what we're actually discussing.

    What names have I called you? I'd like a direct quote of anything inappropriate please. If not, feel free to DM me. I'll happily apologise if you can make a decent case as to how you've been unfairly treated. Anything I ignored from you was because it was irrevelant, which brings me to the most important part of the conversation and something you repeatedly keep overlooking, perhaps out of convenience....

    I'm not sure what it was you were discussing, and it doesn't look like you do either. Nor do you seemingly have any point to make. But structure over style was what I was discussing and it has been since the beginning. The only one who wasn't discussing it was you, when you went off on this bizarre tangent. Again, if you would care to go back and actually read the comments, THAT was the original point. It's truly baffling that I have to keep saying this. Other members have had no trouble with it, so.....

    Oh for heaven's sake. If you don't think having a pop at my 'vocabulary, stubbornness and an evident unwillingness to grasp a simple point' is getting personal then I can't really explain it to you. And now you've just said I don't know what I was talking about. It's just abuse in place of intelligent discourse, really.

    And no, we were discussing the Live and Let Die score and how it Barry's scores influenced it. You replied to me saying that and disagreed, that was the conversation. You can't just keep saying the word 'structure' as if it makes sense on its own. If you're not sure what we were discussing then I don't know why you've been doing it for several pages. I'm not going to play your faux-patronising game any more and accuse you of not being able to read or follow a conversation or any more nasty things like that (as I'm sure you're going to do once more with me) because I'm not into all of this sort of angry arguing and mud-flinging that you seem to be. I wish folks around here could discuss things a bit more civilly: discuss the point, not the person.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited December 2019 Posts: 4,247
    mtm wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    If one listens to Henry Jackman's 'Magneto's theme'. One might think Jackman was auditioning to score a Bond film. And to crown it all, Michael Fassbender seemed to be Playing an unofficial Bond(almost like Sean Connery) in X-men First Class & Jackman took note of that & it shows in that piece. And Jackman is a RCP Composer & he's also English.

    I've never found the theme especially Bond-y but it is very enjoyable. I'll have another listen. It's quite a fun soundtrack, that one; shame the Marvels rarely go as interesting.

    I guess speaking of Marvel people, I'd quite like Ludwig Goransson. Black Panther didn't do much for me, but I love the Bill Conti sound he uses on Creed and the Mandalorian. That'd be fun!

    Yeah, it's a very good piece by Henry Jackman for Magneto's character. And truly Marvel of late, don't seem to pay attention to how their scores sound. And you're right, I didn't enjoy Goransson's Black Panther....I was even shocked by the Score's Oscar win.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Whatever way you want to read it, buddy. That's entirely on you. No condescension here, only nitpicking on the use of an irrevelant hypothetical to prove a point. ;)

    When you say "I appreciate you sticking to your guns though" it feels very much a patronising head-pat: 'no you're wrong you silly little thing, but well done you for trying'. Hope that clears it up for you ;)

    I also wouldn't say it's hypothetical that Barry would give his scores a flavour of the plot of the movie: YOLT is very Far East-tinged in many places.

    You're confusing the Bond "sound", a phrase that I didn't use, with something I've been stressing considerably in my comments; it's possible for a composer to make an unmistakably Bond score while not copying Barry's sound.

    My original point was that he "got as close as we’ve seen to trying to do a Barry score"- I didn't say he had copied him.
    Bond score/Barry sound: in this context there's not much difference. In 1973 there was only the Barry sound when it came to Bond- I don't think George Martin redefined it. Other composers after him did (including Barry himself of course in the 70s and 80s) but here he's very much following the template set up by Barry and Barry alone, adding in a fashionable New Yorky funk and soul taste to suit the movie's plot, and very much taking the lead from McCartney's song (which as a side issue, is probably the most important a song composer has been to the film's score).
    As per my original point, I don't think we've had another composer following Barry's lead quite as closely as he did.


    That is what Martin did. I don't feel he copied Barry sonically at all, but you seem to. That is possibly where your confusion lies. The insistence on only comparing it to Barry's previous six only made it worse. That was something you insisted on, not me. If you're confused, have a read back to what was originally being said before the conversation was muddied.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. In 1972 there were seven James Bond scores you could listen to: if you're going to make an 'unmistakably Bond score' then you're going to draw a bit of inspiration from those. Are you saying he changed it into something new?
    Hamlisch also managed it. I don't particularly like that score, but a lot of it is unmistakably Bond. Same goes for Conti. I didn't like the disco era of scoring, but the structure of the scores was the same as Barry's.

    They did manage it, but you'd really not say that LALD is closer in instrumentation, style, melody to a Barry score than TSWLM? Hamlisch himself dips into a little Barry with the Liparus cue (it even has a little bit of Barry-ish discordance) but that's really the extent of it, giving the rest of the film his own interpretation. I'd say that Martin's interpretation (and I don't want to imply he was rubbish: he was clearly a bit of a genius) was to take the Barry sound, add in a soul and funk flavour, and use a lot of McCartney's song. Later composers did a lot more of their own thing, possibly even because Barry had started to move it away from the 60s style and it had opened up.
    Structure. A word that was repeatedly stressed. Hope this clears it up for you.

    Gee thanks for explaining that in a non-condescending way :D

    I think actually structure is one way he does deviate from Barry a little more. It's much less romantic than a lot of Barry's scores and he introduces his own secondary theme which runs throughout the film (such as in 'Bond to New York') which he uses for a variety of types of scene, not just action or romance, as Barry would use his themes.

    @mtm, you've made a mountain out of a molehill here, mate. If I have to keep explaining a relatively simple point to you then the issue isn't with the point. Sorry man, but the only reason you're having issues here is because you muddied the waters with your own vocabulary, stubbornness and an evident unwillingness to grasp a simple point -
    a point that others have grasped, so it's not like I'm speaking into the void. It feels like you're looking for an argument, only to be the first to be offended soon after. So, I'm going to leave it there. I'm not too fond of having to repeat myself more than once.

    But one last time for good measure....

    Structure over style. That's what's important, I feel. ;)

    I think when you're having to ignore what I'm saying and then call me lots of names then you're kind of making my point for me, mate ;)
    If you feel structure over style is more important then that's great and I respect it: it's just not what we're actually discussing.

    What names have I called you? I'd like a direct quote of anything inappropriate please. If not, feel free to DM me. I'll happily apologise if you can make a decent case as to how you've been unfairly treated. Anything I ignored from you was because it was irrevelant, which brings me to the most important part of the conversation and something you repeatedly keep overlooking, perhaps out of convenience....

    I'm not sure what it was you were discussing, and it doesn't look like you do either. Nor do you seemingly have any point to make. But structure over style was what I was discussing and it has been since the beginning. The only one who wasn't discussing it was you, when you went off on this bizarre tangent. Again, if you would care to go back and actually read the comments, THAT was the original point. It's truly baffling that I have to keep saying this. Other members have had no trouble with it, so..... ;)
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    If one listens to Henry Jackman's 'Magneto's theme'. One might think Jackman was auditioning to score a Bond film. And to crown it all, Michael Fassbender seemed to be Playing an unofficial Bond(almost like Sean Connery) in X-men First Class & Jackman took note of that & it shows in that piece. And Jackman is a RCP Composer & he's also English.

    Don't forget about KINGSMAN: THE SECRET SERVICE for Jackman's ability to craft a ballsy, spy-infused action score. He'd be a decent choice too!

    Exactly....KINGSMAN: THE SECRET SERVICE is an effective Spy score. I think Jackman scored it with Matthew Margeson.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 2019 Posts: 14,861
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    If one listens to Henry Jackman's 'Magneto's theme'. One might think Jackman was auditioning to score a Bond film. And to crown it all, Michael Fassbender seemed to be Playing an unofficial Bond(almost like Sean Connery) in X-men First Class & Jackman took note of that & it shows in that piece. And Jackman is a RCP Composer & he's also English.

    I've never found the theme especially Bond-y but it is very enjoyable. I'll have another listen. It's quite a fun soundtrack, that one; shame the Marvels rarely go as interesting.

    I guess speaking of Marvel people, I'd quite like Ludwig Goransson. Black Panther didn't do much for me, but I love the Bill Conti sound he uses on Creed and the Mandalorian. That'd be fun!

    Yeah, it's a very good piece by Henry Jackman for Magneto's character. And truly Marvel of late, don't seem to pay attention to how their scores sound. And you're right, I didn't enjoy Goransson's Black Panther....I was even shocked by the Score's Oscar win.

    Yeah I didn't get through the BP score; it seemed fine but I much prefer Goransson's other work- and he is really good. I guess it won the Oscar for political reasons, but I'm not going to say that's a bad thing necessarily. I guess the politics of it are more important than these films and bits of music on their own.

    I did love Magneto's theme at the time too! It really stands out. His 'First Class' track is very fun too- and as you mention Kingsman has great catchy tunes: these aren't stunningly important bits of music but they are good fun sort of film 'pop' if you know what I mean! :D
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited December 2019 Posts: 8,009
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Whatever way you want to read it, buddy. That's entirely on you. No condescension here, only nitpicking on the use of an irrevelant hypothetical to prove a point. ;)

    When you say "I appreciate you sticking to your guns though" it feels very much a patronising head-pat: 'no you're wrong you silly little thing, but well done you for trying'. Hope that clears it up for you ;)

    I also wouldn't say it's hypothetical that Barry would give his scores a flavour of the plot of the movie: YOLT is very Far East-tinged in many places.

    You're confusing the Bond "sound", a phrase that I didn't use, with something I've been stressing considerably in my comments; it's possible for a composer to make an unmistakably Bond score while not copying Barry's sound.

    My original point was that he "got as close as we’ve seen to trying to do a Barry score"- I didn't say he had copied him.
    Bond score/Barry sound: in this context there's not much difference. In 1973 there was only the Barry sound when it came to Bond- I don't think George Martin redefined it. Other composers after him did (including Barry himself of course in the 70s and 80s) but here he's very much following the template set up by Barry and Barry alone, adding in a fashionable New Yorky funk and soul taste to suit the movie's plot, and very much taking the lead from McCartney's song (which as a side issue, is probably the most important a song composer has been to the film's score).
    As per my original point, I don't think we've had another composer following Barry's lead quite as closely as he did.


    That is what Martin did. I don't feel he copied Barry sonically at all, but you seem to. That is possibly where your confusion lies. The insistence on only comparing it to Barry's previous six only made it worse. That was something you insisted on, not me. If you're confused, have a read back to what was originally being said before the conversation was muddied.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. In 1972 there were seven James Bond scores you could listen to: if you're going to make an 'unmistakably Bond score' then you're going to draw a bit of inspiration from those. Are you saying he changed it into something new?
    Hamlisch also managed it. I don't particularly like that score, but a lot of it is unmistakably Bond. Same goes for Conti. I didn't like the disco era of scoring, but the structure of the scores was the same as Barry's.

    They did manage it, but you'd really not say that LALD is closer in instrumentation, style, melody to a Barry score than TSWLM? Hamlisch himself dips into a little Barry with the Liparus cue (it even has a little bit of Barry-ish discordance) but that's really the extent of it, giving the rest of the film his own interpretation. I'd say that Martin's interpretation (and I don't want to imply he was rubbish: he was clearly a bit of a genius) was to take the Barry sound, add in a soul and funk flavour, and use a lot of McCartney's song. Later composers did a lot more of their own thing, possibly even because Barry had started to move it away from the 60s style and it had opened up.
    Structure. A word that was repeatedly stressed. Hope this clears it up for you.

    Gee thanks for explaining that in a non-condescending way :D

    I think actually structure is one way he does deviate from Barry a little more. It's much less romantic than a lot of Barry's scores and he introduces his own secondary theme which runs throughout the film (such as in 'Bond to New York') which he uses for a variety of types of scene, not just action or romance, as Barry would use his themes.

    @mtm, you've made a mountain out of a molehill here, mate. If I have to keep explaining a relatively simple point to you then the issue isn't with the point. Sorry man, but the only reason you're having issues here is because you muddied the waters with your own vocabulary, stubbornness and an evident unwillingness to grasp a simple point -
    a point that others have grasped, so it's not like I'm speaking into the void. It feels like you're looking for an argument, only to be the first to be offended soon after. So, I'm going to leave it there. I'm not too fond of having to repeat myself more than once.

    But one last time for good measure....

    Structure over style. That's what's important, I feel. ;)

    I think when you're having to ignore what I'm saying and then call me lots of names then you're kind of making my point for me, mate ;)
    If you feel structure over style is more important then that's great and I respect it: it's just not what we're actually discussing.

    What names have I called you? I'd like a direct quote of anything inappropriate please. If not, feel free to DM me. I'll happily apologise if you can make a decent case as to how you've been unfairly treated. Anything I ignored from you was because it was irrevelant, which brings me to the most important part of the conversation and something you repeatedly keep overlooking, perhaps out of convenience....

    I'm not sure what it was you were discussing, and it doesn't look like you do either. Nor do you seemingly have any point to make. But structure over style was what I was discussing and it has been since the beginning. The only one who wasn't discussing it was you, when you went off on this bizarre tangent. Again, if you would care to go back and actually read the comments, THAT was the original point. It's truly baffling that I have to keep saying this. Other members have had no trouble with it, so.....

    Oh for heaven's sake. If you don't think having a pop at my 'vocabulary, stubbornness and an evident unwillingness to grasp a simple point' is getting personal then I can't really explain it to you. And now you've just said I don't know what I was talking about. It's just abuse in place of intelligent discourse, really.
    And no, we were discussing the Live and Let Die score and how it Barry's scores influenced it. You replied to me saying that and disagreed, that was the conversation. You can't just keep saying the word 'structure' as if it makes sense on its own. I'm not going to play your faux-patronising game any more and accuse you of not being able to read or follow a conversation or any more nasty things like that as I'm sure you're going to do once more with me, because I'm not into all of this sort of angry arguing and mud-flinging that you seem to be. I wish folks around here could discuss things a bit more civilly: discuss the point, not the person.

    Again, no. You were discussing that. I responded, but it had nothing to do with what I was talking about. It was a tangent to my original point.

    It's all well and good wishing for civil discourse, but if you say stupid things and make a seemingly conscious attempt at derailing conversations then you shouldn't be surprised when people call you out on it. If you're overly sensitive and take things like "your stubbornness" as a personal attack after behaving less than amicably yourself, well...it's on you. Nobody else.

    This is the equivalent of someone talking all the way through a movie only to complain it made no sense at the end and give it one star.

    Give it a rest. Stop clogging the thread. As I've said, if you have an issue with how I've spoken with you, my PMs are open.
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Whatever way you want to read it, buddy. That's entirely on you. No condescension here, only nitpicking on the use of an irrevelant hypothetical to prove a point. ;)

    When you say "I appreciate you sticking to your guns though" it feels very much a patronising head-pat: 'no you're wrong you silly little thing, but well done you for trying'. Hope that clears it up for you ;)

    I also wouldn't say it's hypothetical that Barry would give his scores a flavour of the plot of the movie: YOLT is very Far East-tinged in many places.

    You're confusing the Bond "sound", a phrase that I didn't use, with something I've been stressing considerably in my comments; it's possible for a composer to make an unmistakably Bond score while not copying Barry's sound.

    My original point was that he "got as close as we’ve seen to trying to do a Barry score"- I didn't say he had copied him.
    Bond score/Barry sound: in this context there's not much difference. In 1973 there was only the Barry sound when it came to Bond- I don't think George Martin redefined it. Other composers after him did (including Barry himself of course in the 70s and 80s) but here he's very much following the template set up by Barry and Barry alone, adding in a fashionable New Yorky funk and soul taste to suit the movie's plot, and very much taking the lead from McCartney's song (which as a side issue, is probably the most important a song composer has been to the film's score).
    As per my original point, I don't think we've had another composer following Barry's lead quite as closely as he did.


    That is what Martin did. I don't feel he copied Barry sonically at all, but you seem to. That is possibly where your confusion lies. The insistence on only comparing it to Barry's previous six only made it worse. That was something you insisted on, not me. If you're confused, have a read back to what was originally being said before the conversation was muddied.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. In 1972 there were seven James Bond scores you could listen to: if you're going to make an 'unmistakably Bond score' then you're going to draw a bit of inspiration from those. Are you saying he changed it into something new?
    Hamlisch also managed it. I don't particularly like that score, but a lot of it is unmistakably Bond. Same goes for Conti. I didn't like the disco era of scoring, but the structure of the scores was the same as Barry's.

    They did manage it, but you'd really not say that LALD is closer in instrumentation, style, melody to a Barry score than TSWLM? Hamlisch himself dips into a little Barry with the Liparus cue (it even has a little bit of Barry-ish discordance) but that's really the extent of it, giving the rest of the film his own interpretation. I'd say that Martin's interpretation (and I don't want to imply he was rubbish: he was clearly a bit of a genius) was to take the Barry sound, add in a soul and funk flavour, and use a lot of McCartney's song. Later composers did a lot more of their own thing, possibly even because Barry had started to move it away from the 60s style and it had opened up.
    Structure. A word that was repeatedly stressed. Hope this clears it up for you.

    Gee thanks for explaining that in a non-condescending way :D

    I think actually structure is one way he does deviate from Barry a little more. It's much less romantic than a lot of Barry's scores and he introduces his own secondary theme which runs throughout the film (such as in 'Bond to New York') which he uses for a variety of types of scene, not just action or romance, as Barry would use his themes.

    @mtm, you've made a mountain out of a molehill here, mate. If I have to keep explaining a relatively simple point to you then the issue isn't with the point. Sorry man, but the only reason you're having issues here is because you muddied the waters with your own vocabulary, stubbornness and an evident unwillingness to grasp a simple point -
    a point that others have grasped, so it's not like I'm speaking into the void. It feels like you're looking for an argument, only to be the first to be offended soon after. So, I'm going to leave it there. I'm not too fond of having to repeat myself more than once.

    But one last time for good measure....

    Structure over style. That's what's important, I feel. ;)

    I think when you're having to ignore what I'm saying and then call me lots of names then you're kind of making my point for me, mate ;)
    If you feel structure over style is more important then that's great and I respect it: it's just not what we're actually discussing.

    What names have I called you? I'd like a direct quote of anything inappropriate please. If not, feel free to DM me. I'll happily apologise if you can make a decent case as to how you've been unfairly treated. Anything I ignored from you was because it was irrevelant, which brings me to the most important part of the conversation and something you repeatedly keep overlooking, perhaps out of convenience....

    I'm not sure what it was you were discussing, and it doesn't look like you do either. Nor do you seemingly have any point to make. But structure over style was what I was discussing and it has been since the beginning. The only one who wasn't discussing it was you, when you went off on this bizarre tangent. Again, if you would care to go back and actually read the comments, THAT was the original point. It's truly baffling that I have to keep saying this. Other members have had no trouble with it, so..... ;)
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    If one listens to Henry Jackman's 'Magneto's theme'. One might think Jackman was auditioning to score a Bond film. And to crown it all, Michael Fassbender seemed to be Playing an unofficial Bond(almost like Sean Connery) in X-men First Class & Jackman took note of that & it shows in that piece. And Jackman is a RCP Composer & he's also English.

    Don't forget about KINGSMAN: THE SECRET SERVICE for Jackman's ability to craft a ballsy, spy-infused action score. He'd be a decent choice too!

    Exactly....KINGSMAN: THE SECRET SERVICE is an effective Spy score. I think Jackman scored it with Matthew Margeson.

    He did indeed. Great fun.

    I didn't enjoy Jackman's Marvel scores as much in comparison, unfortunately.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 2019 Posts: 14,861
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Whatever way you want to read it, buddy. That's entirely on you. No condescension here, only nitpicking on the use of an irrevelant hypothetical to prove a point. ;)

    When you say "I appreciate you sticking to your guns though" it feels very much a patronising head-pat: 'no you're wrong you silly little thing, but well done you for trying'. Hope that clears it up for you ;)

    I also wouldn't say it's hypothetical that Barry would give his scores a flavour of the plot of the movie: YOLT is very Far East-tinged in many places.

    You're confusing the Bond "sound", a phrase that I didn't use, with something I've been stressing considerably in my comments; it's possible for a composer to make an unmistakably Bond score while not copying Barry's sound.

    My original point was that he "got as close as we’ve seen to trying to do a Barry score"- I didn't say he had copied him.
    Bond score/Barry sound: in this context there's not much difference. In 1973 there was only the Barry sound when it came to Bond- I don't think George Martin redefined it. Other composers after him did (including Barry himself of course in the 70s and 80s) but here he's very much following the template set up by Barry and Barry alone, adding in a fashionable New Yorky funk and soul taste to suit the movie's plot, and very much taking the lead from McCartney's song (which as a side issue, is probably the most important a song composer has been to the film's score).
    As per my original point, I don't think we've had another composer following Barry's lead quite as closely as he did.


    That is what Martin did. I don't feel he copied Barry sonically at all, but you seem to. That is possibly where your confusion lies. The insistence on only comparing it to Barry's previous six only made it worse. That was something you insisted on, not me. If you're confused, have a read back to what was originally being said before the conversation was muddied.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. In 1972 there were seven James Bond scores you could listen to: if you're going to make an 'unmistakably Bond score' then you're going to draw a bit of inspiration from those. Are you saying he changed it into something new?
    Hamlisch also managed it. I don't particularly like that score, but a lot of it is unmistakably Bond. Same goes for Conti. I didn't like the disco era of scoring, but the structure of the scores was the same as Barry's.

    They did manage it, but you'd really not say that LALD is closer in instrumentation, style, melody to a Barry score than TSWLM? Hamlisch himself dips into a little Barry with the Liparus cue (it even has a little bit of Barry-ish discordance) but that's really the extent of it, giving the rest of the film his own interpretation. I'd say that Martin's interpretation (and I don't want to imply he was rubbish: he was clearly a bit of a genius) was to take the Barry sound, add in a soul and funk flavour, and use a lot of McCartney's song. Later composers did a lot more of their own thing, possibly even because Barry had started to move it away from the 60s style and it had opened up.
    Structure. A word that was repeatedly stressed. Hope this clears it up for you.

    Gee thanks for explaining that in a non-condescending way :D

    I think actually structure is one way he does deviate from Barry a little more. It's much less romantic than a lot of Barry's scores and he introduces his own secondary theme which runs throughout the film (such as in 'Bond to New York') which he uses for a variety of types of scene, not just action or romance, as Barry would use his themes.

    @mtm, you've made a mountain out of a molehill here, mate. If I have to keep explaining a relatively simple point to you then the issue isn't with the point. Sorry man, but the only reason you're having issues here is because you muddied the waters with your own vocabulary, stubbornness and an evident unwillingness to grasp a simple point -
    a point that others have grasped, so it's not like I'm speaking into the void. It feels like you're looking for an argument, only to be the first to be offended soon after. So, I'm going to leave it there. I'm not too fond of having to repeat myself more than once.

    But one last time for good measure....

    Structure over style. That's what's important, I feel. ;)

    I think when you're having to ignore what I'm saying and then call me lots of names then you're kind of making my point for me, mate ;)
    If you feel structure over style is more important then that's great and I respect it: it's just not what we're actually discussing.

    What names have I called you? I'd like a direct quote of anything inappropriate please. If not, feel free to DM me. I'll happily apologise if you can make a decent case as to how you've been unfairly treated. Anything I ignored from you was because it was irrevelant, which brings me to the most important part of the conversation and something you repeatedly keep overlooking, perhaps out of convenience....

    I'm not sure what it was you were discussing, and it doesn't look like you do either. Nor do you seemingly have any point to make. But structure over style was what I was discussing and it has been since the beginning. The only one who wasn't discussing it was you, when you went off on this bizarre tangent. Again, if you would care to go back and actually read the comments, THAT was the original point. It's truly baffling that I have to keep saying this. Other members have had no trouble with it, so.....

    Oh for heaven's sake. If you don't think having a pop at my 'vocabulary, stubbornness and an evident unwillingness to grasp a simple point' is getting personal then I can't really explain it to you. And now you've just said I don't know what I was talking about. It's just abuse in place of intelligent discourse, really.
    And no, we were discussing the Live and Let Die score and how it Barry's scores influenced it. You replied to me saying that and disagreed, that was the conversation. You can't just keep saying the word 'structure' as if it makes sense on its own. I'm not going to play your faux-patronising game any more and accuse you of not being able to read or follow a conversation or any more nasty things like that as I'm sure you're going to do once more with me, because I'm not into all of this sort of angry arguing and mud-flinging that you seem to be. I wish folks around here could discuss things a bit more civilly: discuss the point, not the person.

    Again, no. You were discussing that. I responded, but it had nothing to do with what I was talking about. It was a tangent to my original point.

    What original point? This thread is 52 pages long :D You responded several times, which rather makes it a conversation :) If you want to answer intelligently as to what this original point was which I so terribly interrupted by daring to say something which you chose to disagree with then that's great: if you want to insult my reading ability and say 'structure' again instead of an actual reply then it'll rather show what your priority is.
    It's all well and good wishing for civil discourse, but if you say stupid things

    Yep, okay: I think it's clear you just want to call me names now.

    I apologise to everyone having to read this: I'll invite Craig to call me more names over PM so I can ignore them there rather than him constantly filling this thread with them. I'm not interested in a pointless argument about nothing.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited December 2019 Posts: 4,247
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Whatever way you want to read it, buddy. That's entirely on you. No condescension here, only nitpicking on the use of an irrevelant hypothetical to prove a point. ;)

    When you say "I appreciate you sticking to your guns though" it feels very much a patronising head-pat: 'no you're wrong you silly little thing, but well done you for trying'. Hope that clears it up for you ;)

    I also wouldn't say it's hypothetical that Barry would give his scores a flavour of the plot of the movie: YOLT is very Far East-tinged in many places.

    You're confusing the Bond "sound", a phrase that I didn't use, with something I've been stressing considerably in my comments; it's possible for a composer to make an unmistakably Bond score while not copying Barry's sound.

    My original point was that he "got as close as we’ve seen to trying to do a Barry score"- I didn't say he had copied him.
    Bond score/Barry sound: in this context there's not much difference. In 1973 there was only the Barry sound when it came to Bond- I don't think George Martin redefined it. Other composers after him did (including Barry himself of course in the 70s and 80s) but here he's very much following the template set up by Barry and Barry alone, adding in a fashionable New Yorky funk and soul taste to suit the movie's plot, and very much taking the lead from McCartney's song (which as a side issue, is probably the most important a song composer has been to the film's score).
    As per my original point, I don't think we've had another composer following Barry's lead quite as closely as he did.


    That is what Martin did. I don't feel he copied Barry sonically at all, but you seem to. That is possibly where your confusion lies. The insistence on only comparing it to Barry's previous six only made it worse. That was something you insisted on, not me. If you're confused, have a read back to what was originally being said before the conversation was muddied.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. In 1972 there were seven James Bond scores you could listen to: if you're going to make an 'unmistakably Bond score' then you're going to draw a bit of inspiration from those. Are you saying he changed it into something new?
    Hamlisch also managed it. I don't particularly like that score, but a lot of it is unmistakably Bond. Same goes for Conti. I didn't like the disco era of scoring, but the structure of the scores was the same as Barry's.

    They did manage it, but you'd really not say that LALD is closer in instrumentation, style, melody to a Barry score than TSWLM? Hamlisch himself dips into a little Barry with the Liparus cue (it even has a little bit of Barry-ish discordance) but that's really the extent of it, giving the rest of the film his own interpretation. I'd say that Martin's interpretation (and I don't want to imply he was rubbish: he was clearly a bit of a genius) was to take the Barry sound, add in a soul and funk flavour, and use a lot of McCartney's song. Later composers did a lot more of their own thing, possibly even because Barry had started to move it away from the 60s style and it had opened up.
    Structure. A word that was repeatedly stressed. Hope this clears it up for you.

    Gee thanks for explaining that in a non-condescending way :D

    I think actually structure is one way he does deviate from Barry a little more. It's much less romantic than a lot of Barry's scores and he introduces his own secondary theme which runs throughout the film (such as in 'Bond to New York') which he uses for a variety of types of scene, not just action or romance, as Barry would use his themes.

    @mtm, you've made a mountain out of a molehill here, mate. If I have to keep explaining a relatively simple point to you then the issue isn't with the point. Sorry man, but the only reason you're having issues here is because you muddied the waters with your own vocabulary, stubbornness and an evident unwillingness to grasp a simple point -
    a point that others have grasped, so it's not like I'm speaking into the void. It feels like you're looking for an argument, only to be the first to be offended soon after. So, I'm going to leave it there. I'm not too fond of having to repeat myself more than once.

    But one last time for good measure....

    Structure over style. That's what's important, I feel. ;)

    I think when you're having to ignore what I'm saying and then call me lots of names then you're kind of making my point for me, mate ;)
    If you feel structure over style is more important then that's great and I respect it: it's just not what we're actually discussing.

    What names have I called you? I'd like a direct quote of anything inappropriate please. If not, feel free to DM me. I'll happily apologise if you can make a decent case as to how you've been unfairly treated. Anything I ignored from you was because it was irrevelant, which brings me to the most important part of the conversation and something you repeatedly keep overlooking, perhaps out of convenience....

    I'm not sure what it was you were discussing, and it doesn't look like you do either. Nor do you seemingly have any point to make. But structure over style was what I was discussing and it has been since the beginning. The only one who wasn't discussing it was you, when you went off on this bizarre tangent. Again, if you would care to go back and actually read the comments, THAT was the original point. It's truly baffling that I have to keep saying this. Other members have had no trouble with it, so.....

    Oh for heaven's sake. If you don't think having a pop at my 'vocabulary, stubbornness and an evident unwillingness to grasp a simple point' is getting personal then I can't really explain it to you. And now you've just said I don't know what I was talking about. It's just abuse in place of intelligent discourse, really.
    And no, we were discussing the Live and Let Die score and how it Barry's scores influenced it. You replied to me saying that and disagreed, that was the conversation. You can't just keep saying the word 'structure' as if it makes sense on its own. I'm not going to play your faux-patronising game any more and accuse you of not being able to read or follow a conversation or any more nasty things like that as I'm sure you're going to do once more with me, because I'm not into all of this sort of angry arguing and mud-flinging that you seem to be. I wish folks around here could discuss things a bit more civilly: discuss the point, not the person.

    Again, no. You were discussing that. I responded, but it had nothing to do with what I was talking about. It was a tangent to my original point.

    It's all well and good wishing for civil discourse, but if you say stupid things and make a seemingly conscious attempt at derailing conversations then you shouldn't be surprised when people call you out on it. If you're overly sensitive and take things like "your stubbornness" as a personal attack after behaving less than amicably yourself, well...it's on you. Nobody else.

    This is the equivalent of someone talking all the way through a movie only to complain it made no sense at the end and give it one star.

    Give it a rest. Stop clogging the thread. As I've said, if you have an issue with how I've spoken with you, my PMs are open.
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Whatever way you want to read it, buddy. That's entirely on you. No condescension here, only nitpicking on the use of an irrevelant hypothetical to prove a point. ;)

    When you say "I appreciate you sticking to your guns though" it feels very much a patronising head-pat: 'no you're wrong you silly little thing, but well done you for trying'. Hope that clears it up for you ;)

    I also wouldn't say it's hypothetical that Barry would give his scores a flavour of the plot of the movie: YOLT is very Far East-tinged in many places.

    You're confusing the Bond "sound", a phrase that I didn't use, with something I've been stressing considerably in my comments; it's possible for a composer to make an unmistakably Bond score while not copying Barry's sound.

    My original point was that he "got as close as we’ve seen to trying to do a Barry score"- I didn't say he had copied him.
    Bond score/Barry sound: in this context there's not much difference. In 1973 there was only the Barry sound when it came to Bond- I don't think George Martin redefined it. Other composers after him did (including Barry himself of course in the 70s and 80s) but here he's very much following the template set up by Barry and Barry alone, adding in a fashionable New Yorky funk and soul taste to suit the movie's plot, and very much taking the lead from McCartney's song (which as a side issue, is probably the most important a song composer has been to the film's score).
    As per my original point, I don't think we've had another composer following Barry's lead quite as closely as he did.


    That is what Martin did. I don't feel he copied Barry sonically at all, but you seem to. That is possibly where your confusion lies. The insistence on only comparing it to Barry's previous six only made it worse. That was something you insisted on, not me. If you're confused, have a read back to what was originally being said before the conversation was muddied.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. In 1972 there were seven James Bond scores you could listen to: if you're going to make an 'unmistakably Bond score' then you're going to draw a bit of inspiration from those. Are you saying he changed it into something new?
    Hamlisch also managed it. I don't particularly like that score, but a lot of it is unmistakably Bond. Same goes for Conti. I didn't like the disco era of scoring, but the structure of the scores was the same as Barry's.

    They did manage it, but you'd really not say that LALD is closer in instrumentation, style, melody to a Barry score than TSWLM? Hamlisch himself dips into a little Barry with the Liparus cue (it even has a little bit of Barry-ish discordance) but that's really the extent of it, giving the rest of the film his own interpretation. I'd say that Martin's interpretation (and I don't want to imply he was rubbish: he was clearly a bit of a genius) was to take the Barry sound, add in a soul and funk flavour, and use a lot of McCartney's song. Later composers did a lot more of their own thing, possibly even because Barry had started to move it away from the 60s style and it had opened up.
    Structure. A word that was repeatedly stressed. Hope this clears it up for you.

    Gee thanks for explaining that in a non-condescending way :D

    I think actually structure is one way he does deviate from Barry a little more. It's much less romantic than a lot of Barry's scores and he introduces his own secondary theme which runs throughout the film (such as in 'Bond to New York') which he uses for a variety of types of scene, not just action or romance, as Barry would use his themes.

    @mtm, you've made a mountain out of a molehill here, mate. If I have to keep explaining a relatively simple point to you then the issue isn't with the point. Sorry man, but the only reason you're having issues here is because you muddied the waters with your own vocabulary, stubbornness and an evident unwillingness to grasp a simple point -
    a point that others have grasped, so it's not like I'm speaking into the void. It feels like you're looking for an argument, only to be the first to be offended soon after. So, I'm going to leave it there. I'm not too fond of having to repeat myself more than once.

    But one last time for good measure....

    Structure over style. That's what's important, I feel. ;)

    I think when you're having to ignore what I'm saying and then call me lots of names then you're kind of making my point for me, mate ;)
    If you feel structure over style is more important then that's great and I respect it: it's just not what we're actually discussing.

    What names have I called you? I'd like a direct quote of anything inappropriate please. If not, feel free to DM me. I'll happily apologise if you can make a decent case as to how you've been unfairly treated. Anything I ignored from you was because it was irrevelant, which brings me to the most important part of the conversation and something you repeatedly keep overlooking, perhaps out of convenience....

    I'm not sure what it was you were discussing, and it doesn't look like you do either. Nor do you seemingly have any point to make. But structure over style was what I was discussing and it has been since the beginning. The only one who wasn't discussing it was you, when you went off on this bizarre tangent. Again, if you would care to go back and actually read the comments, THAT was the original point. It's truly baffling that I have to keep saying this. Other members have had no trouble with it, so..... ;)
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    If one listens to Henry Jackman's 'Magneto's theme'. One might think Jackman was auditioning to score a Bond film. And to crown it all, Michael Fassbender seemed to be Playing an unofficial Bond(almost like Sean Connery) in X-men First Class & Jackman took note of that & it shows in that piece. And Jackman is a RCP Composer & he's also English.

    Don't forget about KINGSMAN: THE SECRET SERVICE for Jackman's ability to craft a ballsy, spy-infused action score. He'd be a decent choice too!

    Exactly....KINGSMAN: THE SECRET SERVICE is an effective Spy score. I think Jackman scored it with Matthew Margeson.

    He did indeed. Great fun.

    I didn't enjoy Jackman's Marvel scores as much in comparison, unfortunately.

    Yeah, true. But maybe a case can be made for his 'The Winter Soldier Theme'.....the track was quite eerie and fits in with Stan's portrayal of The Winter Soldier.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    mtm wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    If one listens to Henry Jackman's 'Magneto's theme'. One might think Jackman was auditioning to score a Bond film. And to crown it all, Michael Fassbender seemed to be Playing an unofficial Bond(almost like Sean Connery) in X-men First Class & Jackman took note of that & it shows in that piece. And Jackman is a RCP Composer & he's also English.

    I've never found the theme especially Bond-y but it is very enjoyable. I'll have another listen. It's quite a fun soundtrack, that one; shame the Marvels rarely go as interesting.

    I guess speaking of Marvel people, I'd quite like Ludwig Goransson. Black Panther didn't do much for me, but I love the Bill Conti sound he uses on Creed and the Mandalorian. That'd be fun!

    Yeah, it's a very good piece by Henry Jackman for Magneto's character. And truly Marvel of late, don't seem to pay attention to how their scores sound. And you're right, I didn't enjoy Goransson's Black Panther....I was even shocked by the Score's Oscar win.

    Yeah I didn't get through the BP score; it seemed fine but I much prefer Goransson's other work- and he is really good. I guess it won the Oscar for political reasons, but I'm not going to say that's a bad thing necessarily. I guess the politics of it are more important than these films and bits of music on their own.

    I did love Magneto's theme at the time too! It really stands out. His 'First Class' track is very fun too- and as you mention Kingsman has great catchy tunes: these aren't stunningly important bits of music but they are good fun sort of film 'pop' if you know what I mean! :D

    Hahaha....indeed they are. Artful music perhaps.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,009
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    Yeah, true. But maybe a case can be made for his 'The Winter Theme'.....the track was quite eerie and fits in with Stan's portrayal of The Winter Soldier.

    That's true, though it was essentially a redux of Zimmer's work for the Joker on THE DARK KNIGHT. As is a lot of the material, really.

    Though, really the only great loss in Jackman's scores there was the lack of reference to Silvestri's march for the title character. Jackman of course did offer up his own take on the nobility and patriotic side of Cap, but it wasn't really as good.

    That being said, he did a great job on THE PREDATOR. It was the only thing about that film that felt like a natural part of that series.

  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited December 2019 Posts: 4,247
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    Yeah, true. But maybe a case can be made for his 'The Winter Theme'.....the track was quite eerie and fits in with Stan's portrayal of The Winter Soldier.

    That's true, though it was essentially a redux of Zimmer's work for the Joker on THE DARK KNIGHT. As is a lot of the material, really.

    Though, really the only great loss in Jackman's scores there was the lack of reference to Silvestri's march for the title character. Jackman of course did offer up his own take on the nobility and patriotic side of Cap, but it wasn't really as good.

    That being said, he did a great job on THE PREDATOR. It was the only thing about that film that felt like a natural part of that series.

    True....Jackman's 'The Winter Soldier Theme' was obviously a redux of the Joker's theme from The Dark Knight. The score was even criticized for being too similar with Zimmer's work. It also sounded like Steve Jablonsky's 'Lockdown Theme' for Transformers: Age of Extinction too. Almost like RCP chose that sound to be their Villain sound. And True, Jackman did a good in his The Predator score.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    As far as I'm concerned, the only two memorable tracks produced under the MCU are the Avengers theme and "Driving with the Top Down" from the original Iron Man.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 23,449
    @GadgetMan
    Can you please avoid double posting. Thank you.
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