Big Mi6 James Bond film ranking game - A few stats!

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  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited August 7 Posts: 7,071
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I agree regarding Denise. She's far from the worst part of the film. In fact, she helps me to enjoy the film a bit more.

    I do like her too. I know she portrays a much derided character, but she lightens the film up for me.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 7 Posts: 16,211
    007HallY wrote: »
    The script isn’t even bad honestly in itself.

    The story is great, and I always say how exciting it was that a Bond film was doing things we'd never seen before. The idea of Bond being injured right in the opening was genuinely quite thrilling at the time- making 007 actually vulnerable did feel big stuff, and I think we forget that a bit with all of the dramatic advances the Craig films made. Then you have M being kidnapped, MI6 blown up, a chase in London itself- it felt like they were taking some chances at last and pushing the boundaries of a Bond film a bit, giving us stuff we actually hadn't seen before and making it more dramatic. I think looking back at this distance of years it's easy to forget that, but looking at it next to much more conventionally formula films like GE and TND you can see they were actually going to new places with it. Watching it for the first time was a bit of a shock because there was a little more depth than we were used to.
    In the years since the Craig films have overtaken it and left it looking a little dull, but at the time it was as dramatic as the Bond films had got.

    I always say, if this had been a continuation novel written by Benson or whatever, we would be crying out to see it adapted and this sort of invention and drama up on the big screen. There's a clever story (even if it does ultimately boil down to a Goldfinger plot), bags of great memorable ideas, interesting characters - a female villain (which for some reason we still haven't had again since). It just got let down in the execution.
    One bit I always enjoy is M witnessing Bond kill Electra. I think that's a great moment.
  • Posts: 3,913
    Oh, on paper it’s way better than anything Benson ever came up with, agreed. But yeah, it’s a shame. But as I said at least we got a bit of a dry run for SF. I’m sure it could be mined for ideas in future films as well.
  • Posts: 7,304
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    #9 for me. Obviously nostalgia has something to do with it yet again. This was my first true Bond experience, I liked the mixture of fun escapism, humour, character-driven story and the stylish protagonist.

    It's all been done better in other entries (the Dalton films come to mind), though this one does find the right balance here between amusing entertainment and an engaging story.

    My positives definitely include Sophie Marceau, Robbie Coltrane, Maria Grazia Cucinotta, the pts, the action in general (I like it more than most it seems), the music, the title sequence, the mi6 scenes, the gadgets and Pierce himself.

    One final thing that I like here, is that it's the entry that reminds me most of the Bond video games I used to play when I was a wee lad. I'm sure that's a con for many viewers, for me that's a pro however.

    I like the idea of the action. Just not the execution! The boat chase on the Thames with a cool looking boat was great, but boy does it outstay its welcome! Similar, the bladed helicopters were inspired ( an idea I believe was meant for GE!) , but it's just not delivered well. I would have preferred the setpiece in daylight, but I suppose that may have proved tricky for the effects crew!
    The underground firefight is done quite well!
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 7 Posts: 3,785
    This film (The World Is Not Enough) is the same as For Your Eyes Only, both Bond actors that are given the shots at some serious drama, but both films, as a whole failed to work, and both also have great potentials but were not realized and just screwed the things up, although, at least TWINE have Sophie Marceau and her character, Elektra, meanwhile, Kristatos was not great as a villain, and Julian Glover's performance didn't helped.

    And the action scenes in TWINE are both well directed and has a decent cinematography, compared to FYEO.

    When it comes to the Bond Girls, though, Melina is a great character but Carole Bouquet failed to bring the character to its greatness (due to not having an acting experience and was dubbed), while Denise Richards, an experienced actress, was given a mediocre character.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,211
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    And the action scenes in TWINE are both well directed and has a decent cinematography, compared to FYEO.

    I'd say the 2CV and ski chases from FYEO are far superior to anything in TWINE.
  • Posts: 7,304
    mtm wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    And the action scenes in TWINE are both well directed and has a decent cinematography, compared to FYEO.

    I'd say the 2CV and ski chases from FYEO are far superior to anything in TWINE.

    Agreed, and I would even take the helicopter action in the pts of FYEO (sans the final part!) over the caviar factory scene in TWINE!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,211
    Oh yeah good point. The helicopter scene is a staggering good stunt. But we're getting ahead of ourselves! :)
  • edited August 7 Posts: 3,913
    The ski chase in FYEO is good, and I’m saying this as someone who ranks that film near TWINE! Love the tension as Bond makes his jump. Score’s a bit dodgy though.

    By the way, Bouquet was actually an experienced albeit young actress prior to Bond. She was even in a Luis Bunel film and had had a handful of lead/supporting roles in film and tv. Richards had a lot more tv and film work under her belt and was more recognisable though. Talent is a bit debatable in this case I think, but I don’t mind the character of Christmas Jones. She’s meant to be capable and smart. Not a love of Bond’s life but just a capable ally. I do think an alternative actress may have helped.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,071
    007HallY wrote: »
    The ski chase in FYEO is good, and I’m saying this as someone who ranks that film near TWINE! Love the tension as Bond makes his jump. Score’s a bit dodgy though.

    By the way, Bouquet was actually an experienced albeit young actress prior to Bond. She was even in a Luis Bunel film and had had a handful of lead/supporting roles in film and tv. Richards had a lot more tv and film work under her belt and was more recognisable though. Talent is a bit debatable in this case I think, but I don’t mind the character of Christmas Jones. She’s meant to be capable and smart. Not a love of Bond’s life but just a capable ally. I do think an alternative actress may have helped.

    I was going to reply the same. I'm a TWINE defender, but Bouquet was in a Buñuel film, I really can't see Richards, who I really like mind you, in a film from an established director like that...
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,211
    I think Richards is fine, I don't really get why she gets so much flak. Is she way worse than, say, Izabella Scorupco? In the realm of Bond girls I'd say she does a perfectly acceptable job.
  • edited August 7 Posts: 3,913
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    The ski chase in FYEO is good, and I’m saying this as someone who ranks that film near TWINE! Love the tension as Bond makes his jump. Score’s a bit dodgy though.

    By the way, Bouquet was actually an experienced albeit young actress prior to Bond. She was even in a Luis Bunel film and had had a handful of lead/supporting roles in film and tv. Richards had a lot more tv and film work under her belt and was more recognisable though. Talent is a bit debatable in this case I think, but I don’t mind the character of Christmas Jones. She’s meant to be capable and smart. Not a love of Bond’s life but just a capable ally. I do think an alternative actress may have helped.

    I was going to reply the same. I'm a TWINE defender, but Bouquet was in a Buñuel film, I really can't see Richards, who I really like mind you, in a film from an established director like that...

    I'm going to disagree with you slightly as a fan of Paul Verhoeven and Starship Troopers, but I can very much see what you mean and think you're right (very different directors and both established in very different ways too!)
    mtm wrote: »
    I think Richards is fine, I don't really get why she gets so much flak. Is she way worse than, say, Izabella Scorupco? In the realm of Bond girls I'd say she does a perfectly acceptable job.

    My only major issue is some of her line deliveries fall weirdly flat (that "or sour cream" line... oof). But yeah, I think she gets a bit of unfair flack about her not being a nuclear physicist because she wears short shorts.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited August 7 Posts: 24,109
    mtm wrote: »
    I think Richards is fine, I don't really get why she gets so much flak. Is she way worse than, say, Izabella Scorupco? In the realm of Bond girls I'd say she does a perfectly acceptable job.

    Well, I like Denise in TWINE but Isabella operates on an entirely different level if you ask me. I don't like to use the word "worse", but surely Dr Jones wasn't as effective as Natalya. I am not, by the way, suggesting that the actresses are to blame for that.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,894
    Big shame but expected. TWINE comes in at #8 for me. It's only gotten better and better for me as the years go by. I believe it was the second or third Bond film I ever saw, with GE being the first and me being gifted TND and TWINE on VHS shortly after that. I've always had a soft spot for it too because the TWINE game on the N64 was a very, very large part of my childhood.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,071
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Big shame but expected. TWINE comes in at #8 for me. It's only gotten better and better for me as the years go by. I believe it was the second or third Bond film I ever saw, with GE being the first and me being gifted TND and TWINE on VHS shortly after that. I've always had a soft spot for it too because the TWINE game on the N64 was a very, very large part of my childhood.

    For me it was Agent Under Fire, which feels like it's totally in the same realm as TWINE the film.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 7 Posts: 3,785
    For me, if I could compare Richards to where she's really better, those are the Bond Girls from the Moore Era, sorry, that's where I can say that Richards is better than all of them (maybe except Jane Seymour), especially Barbara Bach (whom I consider the greatest miscast Bond Girl in the series, Richards is a hundred mountains better than her), I could even say that the characters like Stacey Sutton, Solitaire, Mary Goodnight made Dr. Christmas Jones a good character in comparison.

    I personally don't see any problem with Izabella Scorupco as Natalya (maybe because she's Polish and her character which was Russian is not that far off from her language and accent, so she's kinda convincing in the role, and Natalya, as a character is great, she has agency, unlike Christmas Jones, which is a shame because I think Denise Richards could've been better than that).
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited August 7 Posts: 7,071
    007HallY wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    The ski chase in FYEO is good, and I’m saying this as someone who ranks that film near TWINE! Love the tension as Bond makes his jump. Score’s a bit dodgy though.

    By the way, Bouquet was actually an experienced albeit young actress prior to Bond. She was even in a Luis Bunel film and had had a handful of lead/supporting roles in film and tv. Richards had a lot more tv and film work under her belt and was more recognisable though. Talent is a bit debatable in this case I think, but I don’t mind the character of Christmas Jones. She’s meant to be capable and smart. Not a love of Bond’s life but just a capable ally. I do think an alternative actress may have helped.

    I was going to reply the same. I'm a TWINE defender, but Bouquet was in a Buñuel film, I really can't see Richards, who I really like mind you, in a film from an established director like that...

    I'm going to disagree with you slightly as a fan of Paul Verhoeven and Starship Troopers, but I can very much see what you mean and think you're right (very different directors and both established in very different ways too!)

    You are quite right, I forgot about Starship Troopers, probably because I haven't seen it yet. What I have seen of Verhoeven, I did like, so there you go ;)

  • Vinther1991Vinther1991 Denmark
    Posts: 64
    Christmas Jones is hardly a great character, but as some of you mention, she is much better than a lot of other Bond girls, especially from the Moore era, at least she has some charisma, and lightens the mood of the film a bit together with Zukowksi, I think that is smart to balance out the more serious aspects of the film. Unfortunately C. Jones just isn't fleshed out enough, there is no solid motivation or purpose. Her greatest moment is probably the oil tube scene, where she is given something of importance to do.
    I think the criticism of her not being convincing as a nuclear physicist is unfair, being a scientist myself, and being surrounded by physicists, there really isn't a specific 'look' that a physicist has, some are not far off how C. Jones looks and acts.

    As for the action, I absolutely think it is TWINE's weak point. The boat chase is one of my favorite action scenes in the series and the opening office scene is cool as well. The rest are just kind of alright, nothing terrible, nothing amazing, just ok. The ski scene and the submarine finale are probably the biggest let downs.
    But I think it has so many great non-action scenes that it makes up for it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 7 Posts: 16,211
    Christmas Jones is hardly a great character, but as some of you mention, she is much better than a lot of other Bond girls, especially from the Moore era, at least she has some charisma, and lightens the mood of the film a bit together with Zukowksi, I think that is smart to balance out the more serious aspects of the film. Unfortunately C. Jones just isn't fleshed out enough, there is no solid motivation or purpose.

    I guess to be fair, she is shown to be willing to travel to the ends of the earth to dispose of hugely dangerous nuclear hazards, and she shows plenty of spirited resentment to those who would use them even before Bond turns up, so I guess that's quite revealing of her character, bravery and determination. So I suppose compared to a lot of civilian Bond girls, it's perhaps more believable than most that she would be prepared to get her hands dirty to stop the baddie as she is already someone who is prepared to go to dangerous and unpleasant places because of her strong moral sense, and nuclear disasters are exactly what she is spending her life preventing. I don't think she really needs any more motivation than what we're given. Natalya on the other hand suddenly becomes a commando because she wants revenge against Boris? I mean, it's fine for the film, but I probably buy it less.
    I know what you mean though that she's kind of relegated in importance in the film and isn't as key as Brosnan previous Bond women.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,090
    TWINE comes in at 25 for me, it's my least favourite Bond film.
    To me the film feels disjointed, the action and drama don't meld together as they should, the story and villains motivations are too unbelievable. Yes I know we've had hollowed out volcanoes, underwater cities, a space station. But in TWINE, the story tries to be too grounded in reality, it wants to be deeper as a story but I'm just not sold.
    The action is mediocre at best. It's all been done before, and done better before.
    That's not to say that TWINE is a bad film. It's still entertaining and has its moments, Robbie Coltrane is a standout for me.
    But the cons outweigh the pros, and there are 24 films I prefer to this one.
  • Posts: 3,913
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    The ski chase in FYEO is good, and I’m saying this as someone who ranks that film near TWINE! Love the tension as Bond makes his jump. Score’s a bit dodgy though.

    By the way, Bouquet was actually an experienced albeit young actress prior to Bond. She was even in a Luis Bunel film and had had a handful of lead/supporting roles in film and tv. Richards had a lot more tv and film work under her belt and was more recognisable though. Talent is a bit debatable in this case I think, but I don’t mind the character of Christmas Jones. She’s meant to be capable and smart. Not a love of Bond’s life but just a capable ally. I do think an alternative actress may have helped.

    I was going to reply the same. I'm a TWINE defender, but Bouquet was in a Buñuel film, I really can't see Richards, who I really like mind you, in a film from an established director like that...

    I'm going to disagree with you slightly as a fan of Paul Verhoeven and Starship Troopers, but I can very much see what you mean and think you're right (very different directors and both established in very different ways too!)

    You are quite right, I forgot about Starship Troopers, probably because I haven't seen it yet. What I have seen of Verhoeven, I did like, so there you go ;)

    Oh, it's a great but quirky little film, recommended. Verhoeven isn't quite on Bunel's level of prestige I guess (love Un Chien Andelous and Discreet Charms incidentally), but he's made a few classics.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited August 11 Posts: 7,071
    Up next, Sir Sean's first appearance in this contest, which was also his last EON one, at #23 we have:

    DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER (1971)
    Directed by Guy Hamilton

    2b3fcd3a3ba82d8ded0c69338b45891d6a7673fa4b1ad52d02d93421680d5136.jpg

    "How disappointing."

    DAF came in 6th for two members, both were also its highest rankings and the only top 10's it received. Three other participants rated it towards the lower end of the top 15.

    At the other end of the spectrum there was a bigger crowd to be found: twelve bottom 5's were given to Bond's trip to Las Vegas, three of those were last places.

    Another divisive entry, DAF ended up with 77 points in total.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    edited August 8 Posts: 8,976
    I'm afraid I'm among those who have DAF (just barely) in their bottom five, but it's a hell of a lot more fun to watch than the other four. The dialogue (in spite of - or let's face it, *because of* - being largely "politically incorrect" these days) is absolutely priceless and only rivalled by Moonraker.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 8 Posts: 3,785
    Ah yes, in my bottom 3, it's just a nonsense film for me, I know it's fun with some good lines and dialogues and the theme song by Shirley Bassey is great, but everything is just bad, from the incoherent and convoluted plot, to the zero to none character development (they're all shallow and nonsense), Connery in bad shape and he and Jill St. John almost looked like father and daughter with absolutely no chemistry, the worst Blofeld in Charles Grey, bad effects, bad cinematography, everything was gone wrong in this film.

    It didn't helped that this film had stepped backward after OHMSS and not giving us the revenge sequel that we deserve.

    This film was just beaten in mediocrity by the most recent Bond film and the second Bond film in the Moore Era (you know which films I'm talking about 😅), this film is still tolerable, it may not be the definite worst in my list, but it's up there as one.
  • edited August 13 Posts: 7,304
    Yes, DAF remains near bottom ("and what nice cheeks!") # 21 for me too! Mainly because it came after the sublime OHMSS, it was a big drop! I can imagine Bond fans were delighted to see Connery return ( bit like some, I say some!!!, were pleased to see Craig announce he was coming back for Bond 25!) But the film was indeed low par. To be fair it does have some of the wittiest dialogue, and one or two memorable scenes, and Wint and Kidd are great henchmen, but Jill St. John starts off well as Tiffany Case, tough and sexy, but by the end becomes too much of a bimbo! The title song is terrific, but I wish the film stayed in Amsterdam for longer, and even though Cubby and Harry were playing it safe with hiring Guy Hamilton, they probably should taken a chance with a new Director!
  • edited August 8 Posts: 3,913
    DAF can be fun. Wint and Kidd are stand outs, the dialogue includes some of the wittiest lines of the series, the elevator fight with Franks is well shot and gritty, and I quite like Jill st. John (although she’s not always used particularly well here). I think its biggest triumph is the fact that it was such a specific change in direction, and at that point the biggest one the series had had. It’d prove that such course corrections were possible with Bond. And to be fair it does camp/black humour well enough (although Charles Grey’s Blofeld dressing in drag is a bit much…) I think balancing out that type of absurd humour would be fine tuned in the Moore era.

    My issues with the film are manyfold. There is, unfortunately, a bit of a cheapness evident in the quality of this film, especially when compared to the 60s adventures . Some of it’s by design - instead of exotic, beautiful locations much of this film takes place on the seedy, grimy streets of Vegas. But a lot of it comes down to bad filmmaking too - Connery’s vocals on his ‘Bond, James Bond’ line seem sped up, the fight choreography during the PTS is badly shot, there’s the notorious insert shot of the car going through the ally which makes no sense and is clearly due to a mistake (incidentally it’s a very underwhelming car chase, and this movie has a few similarly underwhelming sequences - the desert chase with the moon buggy, the fight with Bambi and Thumper), and then of course there’s the fact that Plenty is randomly killed and the audience isn’t quite sure why (I think it’s due to a much needed scene that was cut for some reason). Hamilton’s direction is all over the place in this sense. The film drags a bit by the middle as well for some reason.

    I can’t hate it, but I don’t love it at the same time. One of the weirdest entries in the series though!
  • Posts: 7,304
    I thought everyone knew about the 'mistake' in the car chase? They shot it with a stunt driver in Vegas, but he couldn't keep the car on two wheels long enough for the exit of the alley. So they shot it again back in England, with another stunt driver, but never checked to see which side of the car the first driver went up on. So they inserted that stupid shot of Bond/Tiffany turning in the car!!!!
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited August 11 Posts: 7,071
    I find this one a very hard entry to rank.

    On one hand I'm having a great time with the witty dialogue, the excellent music, the easy-going atmosphere, Wint & Kidd and Charles Gray, who I absolutely adore! I also quite like Tiffany too.

    On the other hand, this one is a considerable step down from its predecessor. There are many editing errors too, the special effects are dodgy even for the time and some comedy moments are a bit too CR67-y (the elephant playing the slots for instance).

    Never really sure where to put this one, sometimes I love it and I feel like I want to put it in the upper half, other times I just can't look past the obvious missteps that it takes... I ranked it 20th this time, though at another day I could put it as high as 12th...
  • edited August 8 Posts: 3,913
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    I thought everyone knew about the 'mistake' in the car chase? They shot it with a stunt driver in Vegas, but he couldn't keep the car on two wheels long enough for the exit of the alley. So they shot it again back in England, with another stunt driver, but never checked to see which side of the car the first driver went up on. So they inserted that stupid shot of Bond/Tiffany turning in the car!!!!

    I vaguely knew, although not the specifics. But yeah, odd moment. Suppose under the circumstances there's not much else they could have done.
  • Slazenger7Slazenger7 Gothenburg, Sweden
    edited August 8 Posts: 1,344
    I had DAF at #14. It’s a guilty pleasure watch for me, despite all the silly low-water stuff and confusing plotholes and editing, I enjoy it for what it is. I like the Vegas setting and the whole vibe, the soundtrack is brilliant, Connery makes a better performance than in YOLT. It’s a movie I tend to return to when I just want some fun and not pay too much attention.
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