NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Murdock wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    We've gotten sidetracked here; I blame myself.

    Here's a question- does NTTD make you love Craig's whole tenure even more? Or if you don't like it, does it kind of tarnish his other entries?

    @chrisisall, It tarnished his other films for me to be honest. I'm not sure I'll ever bother watching them ever again. Shame really.

    I hear ya, and if you'd talked to me last week I'd have agreed. But I'm good at compartmentalizing. I need to be- Quantum Of Solace is one of my favourite Bond movies.
    This last one is like Matrix 2 & 3 to me. Or Star Trek: Generations. Or any Highlander movie after the first. Or this last Star Wars trilogy. It simply doesn't exist for me.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    It didn’t tarnish or make the run better for me. It was just a solid finale. If it did do anything positive for previous installments, it was enhance SP, but only by a little.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    It didn’t tarnish or make the run better for me. It was just a solid finale. If it did do anything positive for previous installments, it was enhance SP, but only by a little.

    I figured that if one likes the film, it would sort of legitimize some of what had previously been thought of as questionable narrative choices in SP...
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited November 2021 Posts: 7,518
    For some inexplicable reason, my mind has decided that SP is a better prequel to NTTD, than NTTD is a sequel to SP. Completely immaterial distinction, I understand, but for whatever reason I get the feeling I'd prefer to watch these two films in reverse order than chronological order.

    So maybe in that way I actually agree with @MakeshiftPython; the only effect NTTD has on the rest of Craig's run is that it makes Spectre slightly more enjoyable (even though I already found it very enjoyable).
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited November 2021 Posts: 5,921
    NTTD is probably my third favorite of the Craigs. NTTD improves SP retroactively.

    I still think CR is the best, followed by QoS. They were on the right track despite the editing and abbreviated script development.

    I think SF was a bloated, if stylish misstep, and would have been a better later film for Craig. His run will be forever missing that middle "prime Bond" film. (Incidentally, that should have been the unequivocal happy ending film for Craig.)
  • echo wrote: »
    I think SF was a bloated, if stylish misstep, and would have been a better later film for Craig. His run will be forever missing that middle "prime Bond" film. (Incidentally, that should have been the unequivocal happy ending film for Craig.)

    If we are to have this individual 'actor timeline' thing, then I agree SP should have been the last movie, and we should ideally have had one or two stand-alone missions before Skyfall's 'old dog'.
    What a lovely end to the era that would have been, him driving off in his DB5 with the girl. They even left his 'retirement' a little vague, so it wouldn't have been too jarring when the next actor took over.
    As it is now, well, 'jarring' would be nice.

  • BennyBenny In the shadowsAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 14,816
    I'm not sure how people can talk about 'timelines' and be confused at how Bond being killed at the end of NTTD is going to be jarring when the new actor is introduced in Bond 26.
    If you'll accept Connery to Brosnan are the same Bond, I don't know what the issue is with a 5 film timeline, with the only real continuity we've had in 5 films ever. Even the actors remained the same during this timeline.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,483
    One thing I do miss from NTTD is the elegance. At times it does just feel like a generic action film and loses that essence of a Bond film.

    I missed that glamour of Bond being in a suit, the leading lady looking fabulous in a beautiful dress and yet they're doing battle with the enemy.
    You only get that with Bond

    I think that's why a lot of fans enjoyed the Cuba sequence, not just for Ana and the more playful tone. Although after my last viewing it did have a hint of box ticking. I loved Paloma but I do wish the tone of Cuba had been a bit more serious, as great as it was, it was jarring how camp it was compared with the rest of the film. I guess that was intentional to give the audience a breather from the heavy story
  • BennyBenny In the shadowsAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 14,816
    One of the things I really liked in NTTD is that I didn't have any questions till after the film. I'm not sure if that makes me naive or a poor judge of story telling. But nothing immediately jumped out at me. On later viewing's questions arise. But as it stands, it's still a good Bond film. At least the way I see it.
  • NTTD tarnishes the Craig era for me, going hand in hand with SPECTRE to oversee a real downward spiral and crash and burn of the Craig era.

    CR and SF are in my top 6 Bond films, and I tend to cut QOS some slack due to the writer's strike, but I now feel I have to condemn the "Craig 5" to a side series from the main 20 films that I'd rather forget.

    The downward spiral to woeful finale that SPECTRE and NTTD took us on will probably see me lump Craig's first 3 films into an unwatchable, stand alone series whose path I will never cross again.

    What will be interesting, is if CR and SF can maintain their places in my top 6 or if the gut-kick of SPECTRE and NTTD actually results in me lowering my opinion, and subsequent ranking, of CR and SF on my list. Ultimately, their ranking shouldn't suffer but it might.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,483
    @EDDIEVH just out of interest what did you dislike so much about Spectre and NTTD mate?

    I only ask because a lot of people I see on the forum hate it because it's bad and not really say why they don't like it? That's no dig at you there my friend, just in general.

    I'm not a fan of some of the ideas in NTTD and the ending especially but there are lots of improvements from Spectre for me personally
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited November 2021 Posts: 7,518
    Benny wrote: »
    One of the things I really liked in NTTD is that I didn't have any questions till after the film. I'm not sure if that makes me naive or a poor judge of story telling. But nothing immediately jumped out at me. On later viewing's questions arise. But as it stands, it's still a good Bond film. At least the way I see it.

    I’m with you there. I haven't really had any questions arise on my later viewings, nothing that takes me out anyways.

  • Jordo007 wrote: »
    @EDDIEVH just out of interest what did you dislike so much about Spectre and NTTD mate?

    I only ask because a lot of people I see on the forum hate it because it's bad and not really say why they don't like it? That's no dig at you there my friend, just in general.

    I'm not a fan of some of the ideas in NTTD and the ending especially but there are lots of improvements from Spectre for me personally

    Ok, straight out of the gate, I would say that even the weakest Bond films have their plus points. Before NTTD claimed the no.25 spot on my faves list, the bottom spot was occupied by DAF. However, there are parts of DAF I enjoy but overall it was just the weakest. NTTD and SP do have some plus points but more issues.

    The first most pressing issue with both SP and NTTD for me was how utterly stale both movies felt. The feel of both movies is a big part of this tbh. If you take a weak Bond movie like DAF or MR, they are hugely flawed but at least they are fun/enjoyable. Both SP and NTTD are far from fun and action is not particularly exciting.

    The constant personal links to Bond/Bond's past are irritating and, for me, after Skyfall, actually felt kind of smug. Almost as though the writers are saying, "see, see... you didn't expect that did you?". No we didn't expect it cos it's so utterly awful, Blofeld is Bond's step-brother, Bond has a secret daughter, Bond dies... blah, blah, overused and unimaginative twists that are done to death. We had an interesting backstory and build up of Craig's character from CR through to SF and from there it felt like he could soar and become an entertaining Bond. They went down the pained, miserable route instead of soaring with it and just killed Craig's series stone dead.

    Javier Bardem is a big reason I thoroughly enjoy Skyfall. Two quality actors in C.Waltz and R.Malek are poorly written and woefully underused. We're expected to believe Bond falls for the plank of wood that is L.Seydoux, pull the other one.

    Ultimately, both movies are far too full of their own self importance and when that is the case you can't get a way with silly flaws. Like Bond swearing to take care of Madeleine forever, then just say ok when she leaves and let her walk down a dark secluded street and get kidnapped??? Or the reason why the nanobots "infecting" everyone can't be destroyed with a pinch??? Watch Red Notice, it's silly but it's fun. Would I expect better that Red Notice from a Bond film - absolutely, but I'd at least expect the fun and vibe of Red Notice from a Bond film, we only get that feel/vibe in Paloma's 15 mins.

    I am rambling now, as this is off the top of my head, but both movies take themselves far too seriously when they have such poor twists, all personally linked to Bond, and poor characterisation of the bad guys. Also, weak stories they've attempted to paper over with the soap opera backstories. In addition to all that, they are far too long for no good reason other than smug overindulgence and the assumption that what they are doing is brilliant, it's not!!

    CR to Skyfall was fresh and harder edged but still felt like Bond, SP and NTTD were just huge steps in the wrong direction that made me feel I wasn't watching Bond anymore.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,483
    @EDDIEVH fair enough mate you've some interesting points there, especially about Madeline. Thanks for sharing them
  • Posts: 6,728
    Definitely did not tarnish my view of Craigs era, though am not hugely enthused by NTTD, Craig is, to me, still a fantastic Bond. Coming after the horrible Brossa era, Craig was, and still is a superb 007, and he has done at least 2 stunning Bond movies, And 2 quite good ones! I will miss him greatly in the part!
  • Mathis1 wrote: »
    Definitely did not tarnish my view of Craigs era, though am not hugely enthused by NTTD, Craig is, to me, still a fantastic Bond. Coming after the horrible Brossa era, Craig was, and still is a superb 007, and he has done at least 2 stunning Bond movies, And 2 quite good ones! I will miss him greatly in the part!

    I haven't watched any of Brozza's Bond films from start to finish since 2002, I was that disenchanted with them. I'll miss Craig too.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2021 Posts: 17,687
    EDDIEVH wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    @EDDIEVH just out of interest what did you dislike so much about Spectre and NTTD mate?

    I only ask because a lot of people I see on the forum hate it because it's bad and not really say why they don't like it? That's no dig at you there my friend, just in general.

    I'm not a fan of some of the ideas in NTTD and the ending especially but there are lots of improvements from Spectre for me personally

    Ok, straight out of the gate, I would say that even the weakest Bond films have their plus points. Before NTTD claimed the no.25 spot on my faves list, the bottom spot was occupied by DAF. However, there are parts of DAF I enjoy but overall it was just the weakest. NTTD and SP do have some plus points but more issues.

    The first most pressing issue with both SP and NTTD for me was how utterly stale both movies felt. The feel of both movies is a big part of this tbh. If you take a weak Bond movie like DAF or MR, they are hugely flawed but at least they are fun/enjoyable. Both SP and NTTD are far from fun and action is not particularly exciting.

    The constant personal links to Bond/Bond's past are irritating and, for me, after Skyfall, actually felt kind of smug. Almost as though the writers are saying, "see, see... you didn't expect that did you?". No we didn't expect it cos it's so utterly awful, Blofeld is Bond's step-brother, Bond has a secret daughter, Bond dies... blah, blah, overused and unimaginative twists that are done to death. We had an interesting backstory and build up of Craig's character from CR through to SF and from there it felt like he could soar and become an entertaining Bond. They went down the pained, miserable route instead of soaring with it and just killed Craig's series stone dead.

    Javier Bardem is a big reason I thoroughly enjoy Skyfall. Two quality actors in C.Waltz and R.Malek are poorly written and woefully underused. We're expected to believe Bond falls for the plank of wood that is L.Seydoux, pull the other one.

    Ultimately, both movies are far too full of their own self importance and when that is the case you can't get a way with silly flaws. Like Bond swearing to take care of Madeleine forever, then just say ok when she leaves and let her walk down a dark secluded street and get kidnapped??? Or the reason why the nanobots "infecting" everyone can't be destroyed with a pinch??? Watch Red Notice, it's silly but it's fun. Would I expect better that Red Notice from a Bond film - absolutely, but I'd at least expect the fun and vibe of Red Notice from a Bond film, we only get that feel/vibe in Paloma's 15 mins.

    I am rambling now, as this is off the top of my head, but both movies take themselves far too seriously when they have such poor twists, all personally linked to Bond, and poor characterisation of the bad guys. Also, weak stories they've attempted to paper over with the soap opera backstories. In addition to all that, they are far too long for no good reason other than smug overindulgence and the assumption that what they are doing is brilliant, it's not!!

    CR to Skyfall was fresh and harder edged but still felt like Bond, SP and NTTD were just huge steps in the wrong direction that made me feel I wasn't watching Bond anymore.

    I just watched NTTD, SP & SF last week.
    NTTD is the worst Bond movie I've ever seen (as per your detailed review).
    SP was stupid & lazy, but at least had some genuinely fun moments for me that redeem it a bit.
    SF was just as awkward as ever (I thought I'd like it more this time around after seeing NTTD). The whole thing was so forced & contrived, all in service to ultimately killing M.
    IMO all three of these movie suffered from "see, see... you didn't expect that did you?" All three were full of high production values & low creativity. Kirk had a kid he didn't know about, Indy had a kid he didn't know about, let's do it for Bond too.
    Kevin fought guys on his home turf without proper weapons while he was home alone, the Ewoks repelled superiour firepower on their home turf without proper weapons, Bond can do it too.
    Luke, Han & Leia all died, let's kill M, Felix & Bond too.
    Dark & depressing in in fashion, let's make Bond movies dark & depressing too...
    Ah well, at least CR & QOS still rock.... and they don't copy other movie ideas to do it.


  • BirdlesonBirdleson Moderator
    Posts: 2,161
    I guess CR is the one we can all agree on (though I seem to remember a couple of members even disliking that entry, so nearly universal).
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,518
    It has, IMO, some unnecessary bloat, but is otherwise a modern classic for sure.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 7,975
    Whatever they released after DAD was always going to be recieved warmly. I doubt it would have the same reputation were it not for that.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,518
    Personally I think Casino Royale would have received the same acclaim regardless of DADs existence. There was enough time in between.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Personally I think Casino Royale would have received the same acclaim regardless of DADs existence. There was enough time in between.

    Yeah, FOUR years. The general movie-going public tends to remember what they like a lot & forget the rest.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I guess CR is the one we can all agree on (though I seem to remember a couple of members even disliking that entry, so nearly universal).

    Understatement. While I think people warmly embraced CR, I think it took awhile for fans to settle on it. So much rhetoric of “it doesn’t feel like a Bond film”, “where’s Q and Moneypenny??” “this is a Bond film for people who don’t like Bond”
  • donnydracodonnydraco America
    Posts: 16
    chrisisall wrote: »
    We've gotten sidetracked here; I blame myself.

    Here's a question- does NTTD make you love Craig's whole tenure even more? Or if you don't like it, does it kind of tarnish his other entries?

    NTTD left a bitter aftertaste, but in time, I think it will fade in memory (as did SPECTRE).

    One of the most endearing qualities to the Craig run, after all, is that each of the five films is punctuated with a narrative "exit-point". And for me, the saga ends with SKYFALL.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,372
    I loved the first two and didn't like the next two at all, so his overall tenure was relying solely on NTTD. I loved it, helped him finish out very strongly and still rank amongst one of my favorites to play the role.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,459
    Good to hear, @Creasy47. Also, NTTD helped me connect all of Daniel's Bond movies more smoothly, and I appreciated that. It adds to my overall enjoyment of his tenure.
  • Benny wrote: »
    Understatement. While I think people warmly embraced CR, I think it took awhile for fans to settle on it. So much rhetoric of “it doesn’t feel like a Bond film”, “where’s Q and Moneypenny??” “this is a Bond film for people who don’t like Bond”

    It didn't feel at all like a traditional Bond film, but two things saved it for me.

    1) It was very close to the book in plot, (and the first time he'd ordered the proper Vespa!). So although I didn't like Craig's look, it was still very Fleming.

    2) It was a bloody good movie!

    I mean, when did we last have a proper mass-market Fleming novel movie tie-in? The Man With The Golden Gun?
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    Bond is really on fire throughout the final act. He kills a whooping total of 28 baddies, including Safin, without counting the ones he kills using the bombs in the lab.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,518
    matt_u wrote: »
    Bond is really on fire throughout the final act. He kills a whooping total of 28 baddies, including Safin, without counting the ones he kills using the bombs in the lab.

    A complete badass... when he comes out from behind the door and fires the rifle one-handed up the stairs, during the longshot... my god.
  • BennyBenny In the shadowsAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 14,816
    Benny wrote: »
    Understatement. While I think people warmly embraced CR, I think it took awhile for fans to settle on it. So much rhetoric of “it doesn’t feel like a Bond film”, “where’s Q and Moneypenny??” “this is a Bond film for people who don’t like Bond”

    It didn't feel at all like a traditional Bond film, but two things saved it for me.

    1) It was very close to the book in plot, (and the first time he'd ordered the proper Vespa!). So although I didn't like Craig's look, it was still very Fleming.

    2) It was a bloody good movie!

    I mean, when did we last have a proper mass-market Fleming novel movie tie-in? The Man With The Golden Gun?

    Where are you quoting me from? I don't recall writing this.
    Also, just to clarify, it's a Vesper. The name Bond gives his Martini. A Vespa is a brand of Italian scooter. ;)
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