The What if thread...What if Dalton had starred in GE instead of Brosnan?

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  • Posts: 11,910
    Well he kinda dabbled into the spy genre with INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS. It’s the film that not only made me think he would have been capable of pulling it off but it also made Fassbender a favorite Bond contender back in 2009.

    Inglourious Basterds is very much a war film for me (obviously). Even though elements of the film might have a spy film flair to them, I was thinking of a straight-forward spy thriller.

    Maybe with a cold war setting! That would have been great.
    Spy films today could learn a lot from building tension the way Tarantino did with two scenes: Hans Landa’s introduction at the dairy farm and later the tavern scene. It’s literally just people talking in rooms, but it holds a lot more excitement for me than any action sequence laced with explosions. If Tarantino brought that quality to his version of CR, I wish we had gotten that, and I say that as a fan of the 2006 film.

    Definitely agree. The tension of some of the scenes in IB is way beyond the big action set pieces we see in most films today. That includes Bond too.
    jobo wrote: »
    Tarantino's CR with Brosnan is the big what-if for me; I would have loved to have seen it. So much so that if I had a choice between the Craig era and that one film, I'd gone with the Tarantino film. No doubt.

    I know many thinks Tarantino and Bond are incompatible – and I totally understand that argument, but I think he would have restricted himself somewhat in order to do a film that is very much a Bond film. Even more so if the film would have been an EON production.

    We would no doubt have got a film with fantastic dialogue and some really great character portrayals as a result of it. The score could have been something different too – although I don't think Tarantino would have approached this the same way as with many of his films. It would most likely have been an original score. Morricone perhaps?

    On a side note: I really hope Tarantino does a spy film before he retires. It's the one genre he hasn't done that I hope he explores.


    I agree. The idea of a Tarantino spy film makes my mouth water as we speak! =P~

    Someone needs to make sure he doesn't retire soon though! In these days of Marvel, big studio productions, remakes and money grabs, he is one of the last classic film makers. We would need him in the decades to come!

    Good point. When he retires, the film industry will be missing something for sure.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 1,961
    Maybe one last question for this what if....do you think Pierce could have made CR work with Quentin as director? He was on record saying he wanted to do CR. But could he pulled it off?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython Crab Key
    Posts: 1,225
    I think he could have pulled off a film like CR in 2005 more than he could have in 1995. I always thought Brosnan really grew into a better actor as he aged, with DAD being his best performance. There he felt more vital, whereas in GE I think he was a bit too stiff. With QT directing, I really think we may have had his best performance of his tenure.

  • Posts: 1,530
    Brosnan wouldn't have been a great match for the hardboiled, film-noir Bond of Casino Royale. His talents are more in the Roger Moore direction of light comedy and the Alain Delon coolness. But he doesn't have a brutal killer instinct, so audiences probably would have been alienated to hear him say lines like "The bitch is dead now." I also think that whereas Fleming's sensibility is that of a sophisticated adult who had experienced war and knew how scarring violence can be, Tarantino's sensibility is that of an intelligent adolescent sadist with pop-cult taste. I don't think he and Fleming would have fit together.
  • Posts: 5,105
    Revelator wrote: »
    Brosnan wouldn't have been a great match for the hardboiled, film-noir Bond of Casino Royale. His talents are more in the Roger Moore direction of light comedy and the Alain Delon coolness. But he doesn't have a brutal killer instinct, so audiences probably would have been alienated to hear him say lines like "The bitch is dead now." I also think that whereas Fleming's sensibility is that of a sophisticated adult who had experienced war and knew how scarring violence can be, Tarantino's sensibility is that of an intelligent adolescent sadist with pop-cult taste. I don't think he and Fleming would have fit together.

    Absolutely.... Case. Closed.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    edited August 30 Posts: 1,961
    Okay since @peter considers this case closed lets move on to another what if that involves a director choice. This one nearly happened.

    After TMWTGG Bond went through a producer change as Harry was bought out and Cubby took on the caretaker role of the franchise. TMWTGG had performed less then stellar at the Box Office and it was decided the rush to get the movie out after LALD had played a part in that. Cubby took 3 years to get TSWLM to the screen. It went through many different screenwriters. (a future what if topic) Cubby originally tapped Hamilton to direct Spy. He was all set to do it and then Superman came up and Hamilton left the project and Lewis Gilbert returned to the director chair. I believe it was Gilbert who brought in Chris Wood to write the script.

    Okay, lets say Hamilton wasn't as tempted by the Superman project and instead stayed on as the director of Spy. What sort of movie would we have got? Would we have had the huge commercial success? What would the tone of the movie be?

    What say you Mi6. What if Guy Hamilton had stayed on and directed Spy and made it four Bond movies in a row! (DAF, LALD, TMWTGG, and Spy)
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 1,030
    I think it would have been more realistic, in style. GH's other Bond films may have been campy, but they did have fairly realistic villain plots. It may have felt tired though, as I feel that GH and TM were not getting along, and they had spent too much time on the series.
  • Posts: 4,362
    Oh no! I don´t want to sound disrespectful to fans of the early seventies films, but I honestly cannot stomach the thought of another Hamilton/Mankiewicz colaboration. That partnership was toxic in my opinion! I think the franchise might have been in danger with another film like that...
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython Crab Key
    Posts: 1,225
    Mankiewicz admitted to feeling worn out from Bond by the time he started working on TMWTGG, which is why he only gave a very brief outline for TSWLM and did very little else.

    I'm not sure how another Hamilton installment would have fared. Cubby did want to get back to the grandiose scope of the 60s films, as the last three had been pretty straightforward. Would Hamilton have stepped up for a more epic scope? Not sure. None of the other films I've seen of his really suggest that. Lewis Gilbert coming to bring back that grandiose quality brought back a certain freshness for 70s Bond.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 1,961
    Yes I think credit must be given to Gilbert for the tone and scope of this picture. It just feels bigger especially when you compare it to TMWTGG. Hell the battle on the Liparus is larger then any moment in either of LALD and TMWTGG.

    Funny that Hamilton was going to have to deliver a big film with Superman. Another project that ended up going to another director.

    I do think Cubby would have been more forceful in asking for a bigger movie but like you @MakeshiftPython I have trouble seeing it.

    A lot of people say TSWLM is Roger's finest hour, or at least the first movie where we see him shine as Bond. How much is that a credit to the direction of Gilbert? Could it be that he was asking Moore to deliver something different then Hamilton had? I always felt that LALD and TMWTGG I could easily see Connery's Bond in both without much change.
  • edited August 30 Posts: 1,530
    Moore said that he and Gilbert shared the same sense of humor, so Gilbert deserves some credit for drawing out a more natural, relaxed performance. However, the other performances in Gilbert's Moore films range from mediocre to downright terrible.

    We also need to remember that from DAF to TMWTGG the Bond movies were operating under lower budgets and tended to cost-cut. Broccoli decided that his first solo Bond was so crucial that it needed a bigger budget, a positively lavish one. Without Broccoli's efforts, TSWLM would not have had more scope than the previous Bonds, regardless of the director. That said, with YOLT Gilbert had proved he could handle an expensive production, so he was a natural choice for TSWLM.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 2,685
    Revelator wrote: »
    Brosnan wouldn't have been a great match for the hardboiled, film-noir Bond of Casino Royale. His talents are more in the Roger Moore direction of light comedy and the Alain Delon coolness. But he doesn't have a brutal killer instinct, so audiences probably would have been alienated to hear him say lines like "The bitch is dead now." I also think that whereas Fleming's sensibility is that of a sophisticated adult who had experienced war and knew how scarring violence can be, Tarantino's sensibility is that of an intelligent adolescent sadist with pop-cult taste. I don't think he and Fleming would have fit together.

    I thought he was pretty good in November Man and he played a gritty character in that.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 685
    The real question is this: Would Sheriff J. W. Pepper have made a third cameo appearance?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger regnifrednuhT
    Posts: 34,676
    Minion wrote: »
    The real question is this: Would Sheriff J. W. Pepper have made a third cameo appearance?

    Would have been funny if he crossed paths with Jaws.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython Crab Key
    Posts: 1,225
    thedove wrote: »
    Yes I think credit must be given to Gilbert for the tone and scope of this picture. It just feels bigger especially when you compare it to TMWTGG. Hell the battle on the Liparus is larger then any moment in either of LALD and TMWTGG.

    Funny that Hamilton was going to have to deliver a big film with Superman. Another project that ended up going to another director.

    I do think Cubby would have been more forceful in asking for a bigger movie but like you @MakeshiftPython I have trouble seeing it.

    A lot of people say TSWLM is Roger's finest hour, or at least the first movie where we see him shine as Bond. How much is that a credit to the direction of Gilbert? Could it be that he was asking Moore to deliver something different then Hamilton had? I always felt that LALD and TMWTGG I could easily see Connery's Bond in both without much change.

    Yeah, I don’t mean just Hamilton’s other Bond films but even his non-Bond films were never really epic in scope. Closest may have been BATTLE OF BRITAIN, which I’ve only seen once and recall feeling it was less a war film and more played as a big lark (like every other Hamilton film).
  • DragonpolDragonpol Schloss Drache
    Posts: 13,106
    Minion wrote: »
    The real question is this: Would Sheriff J. W. Pepper have made a third cameo appearance?

    Would have been funny if he crossed paths with Jaws.

    Yes, they could have fed him to Jaws. ;)
  • Posts: 4,362
    Minion wrote: »
    The real question is this: Would Sheriff J. W. Pepper have made a third cameo appearance?

    Would have been funny if he crossed paths with Jaws.

    - "I know you! You're that big toothed guy with the big teeth!"
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 1,961
    Oh my! That would have been the turning point. Maybe sunk the series.

    Maybe Pepper could have been boat shopping? Or riding the train with Mabel? LOL!

    In all seriousness, I think it might have been a worse movie with Hamilton at the helm. I am glad that Gilbert got the reins for this movie. I would have liked to have seen a plot that was a little more risky in terms of it's plot. To me it's a virtual copy of YOLT but as someone pointed out I think Cubby was more hands on and knew there was no room for error.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    edited September 2 Posts: 1,961
    Enough talk of directors and choices made with them. Lets turn to a musical what if. Back in 1973-74 the producers were getting ready to bring TMWTGG to the screen. As Paul McCartney and Wings had just scored a massive hit with LALD they were looking to follow-up on the success. I believe Alice Cooper was asked to write and sing the song. He presented it to the producers and they didn't like it, instead getting Barry to come up with something and getting Lulu to sing it.

    But what if Cooper's version had been selected for the film? Would it had repeated the chart success of LALD? What impact would it have had on the score of the film. As it was Barry had a tight time frame to score the film. Do you think he would have been able to use this theme through out his soundtrack?



    What say you Mi6? What if Alice Cooper would have provided the theme song to TMWTGG?
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 5,631
    I don't think it would have been nearly as good, but the version available is more demo than a song to compare. Pumped up with horns and strings, that would be different. But still not as good I expect.

  • Posts: 2,946
    I just thought I'd add that the producers weren't in agreement over who should perform the title song for TMWTGG. It's my belief that this was one of the contributing factors that led to Harry and Cubby falling out over creative differences. Harry wanted Elton John or Cat Stevens to perform TMWTGG as they were both signed up to his music publishing company Hilary Music. Alice Cooper was never asked to write the song for TMWTGG, but did so as a fan of the series and decided to submit the demo for consideration. Personally, I'm unimpressed with Cooper's demo as it's severely lacking in the bombastic style that fans of the series expected to hear at the time. Again, I think we really missed out on hearing what Elton John would've done in his rock prime and would have to side with Harry over the final kitsch choice of Lulu. Whilst I don't hate Lulu's performance or song, as it's certainly better than All Time High or Moonraker, I think they could've done far better in '74 had Elton wrote and performed it. But it is what it is.
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,616
    While lyrically not a fan of Lulu's title song (or her delivery), I do enjoy the tune - particularly those striking horns at the start. If they had been lost from Barry's score as well...that would have been very disappointing. (I hum those opening bars at random times quite often!) on a side note - Elton John performing a Bond song with Taupin's lyrics in 1973/74 era would have been very interesting.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 1,961
    Thanks @bondsum for the historic details. I knew there were lots of clashes between Salzman and Broccoli on Golden Gun. I was unaware it extended to the singer choice for the movie. Great stuff. I would side with Harry too! Elton John in 1974 would have been a great choice. I wonder if he'd try to use the title in the lyrics.

    I am not an Alice Cooper fan to begin with. I thought the song was lacking as well but I must appreciate the effort especially since he did this on his own without prompting from the producers. I think Barry's score is the least inspired of all his work. It's too repetitive and generic. Maybe working with a different theme song would have assisted in improving the overall soundtrack.
  • Posts: 9,702
    I'm a pretty big fan of Alice Cooper and do like his song. I don't think it would have been right for Bond or that particular Bond film, though.
  • Posts: 700
    That story about Saltzman is very telling when you consider the film before he seemingly had no idea who Paul McCartney was or his impact in the music industry.

    Elton John and Bond is intriguing, though. Especially in light of all the films his music has been in since.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Merry Craigmas
    Posts: 3,588
    Assuming Barry wouldn't have gotten to participate in the arrangement of Cooper's song (and obviously not in its composition), how would he have reacted to the idea of integrating someone else's song into his score? Last time that happened was in FRWL, but he was new in the film scoring business, and looking for career opportunities, so he couldn't be precious about it at the time. But later in his career, it was important to him. Even in AVTAK and TLD, when successful bands were hired, he was still involved in the creation of the respective songs. It's also been said this was a reason why Barry didn't return for TND (although in a piece he wrote on Barry, his agent said it was about money).
  • edited September 2 Posts: 2,946
    thedove wrote: »
    Thanks @bondsum for the historic details. I knew there were lots of clashes between Salzman and Broccoli on Golden Gun. I was unaware it extended to the singer choice for the movie. Great stuff. I would side with Harry too! Elton John in 1974 would have been a great choice. I wonder if he'd try to use the title in the lyrics.
    You're welcome @thedove.
    BT3366 wrote: »
    That story about Saltzman is very telling when you consider the film before he seemingly had no idea who Paul McCartney was or his impact in the music industry.
    That story isn't entirely true. Well, certainly not the way you've told it. Of course Saltzman knew who Paul McCartney was and his impact on the music scene. It's just at the time of pre-production, Saltzman was still thinking about casting a black actress as Solitaire and felt someone like Thelma Houston would've been more appropriate to sing the title song that McCartney had written to reflect the lead actress. Don't forget, Paul McCartney wrote the song in September 1972 after reading Fleming's book, so it was already in place before principle photography had started. George Martin explained to Saltzman that he didn't need to get anyone else to sing the song because no one was bigger than McCartney himself, and Saltzman agreed and dropped the idea of a black Solitaire. Let's also not forget McCartney's involvement was down to Harry's own music publishing company and Ron Kass, who would later run it, that set up the deal and major coup of getting McCartney in the first place. Sadly, the next movie would be principally a Cubby movie, meaning the title song choice would be down to him. As I pointed out above, Harry wanted one of his own two singers, but didn't get his way. Hell, I think even Cat Stevens could've written something really interesting, especially as he wrote songs for other artists. First Cut Is The Deepest springs to mind.
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Elton John and Bond is intriguing, though. Especially in light of all the films his music has been in since.
    Not just Elton but Bernie Taupin's lyrics as well would've been something still spoken about today, and certainly a progressive step in the right direction just on the heels of McCartney & Wings' mega hit. But Cubby wanted Lulu and it was Lulu that we got.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython Crab Key
    Posts: 1,225
    You definitely have to consider what happened with AVTAK and TLD if you consider how Alice Cooper being hired might have gone with Barry. My understanding is that Duran Duran had written their song, but were open to Barry rearranging it into what we know now because they trusted him. But with A-ha, the band members weren’t as open to Barry’s control and that’s where they clashed creatively.

    Barry was never too happy about Cubby getting bands hired. He was much more accustomed to working with a singer and creating the music rather than collaborate with actual musicians, so it’s curious that it took until 1985 for that to happen, and worked well with McCartney because he already had a history with Martin.

    So yeah, unless Cooper was willing to let Barry be the lead musician, it may have not gone well. Or, he would do what Duran Duran did and let Barry dictate things. We’ll never know, as the song is essentially a demo.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 1,961
    I must say I find this thread enlightening. I am learning so many new tidbits of Bond history. I wasn't sure that a song choice would lead to a discussion that lasted long but I was pleasantly surprised by the information and thoughts shared here. I hadn't realized that Barry preferred to work with singers and come up with the arrangement. I know that Arnold had trouble incorporating Another Way to Die into the soundtrack proper. I am guessing that's because he didn't have anything to do with that arrangement.

    Back to Alice Cooper, I think it's interesting to consider a couple of Bond films having some rock musicians doing the theme song. It would appear that after McCartney the producers went MOR with artists like Simon, Bassey and Easton. In fact I would argue that till CR we didn't get a true rock song as the main title theme.

    I find it cool to know that Alice was such a fan that he would pour his effort into this song. I find it grows on me to know this info.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython Crab Key
    Posts: 1,225
    The clashing between Barry and A-Ha is really what I believe lead to the way EON has since approached hiring music artists by giving them option to do their own music without the collaboration of the composer. It may not be a coincidence given that LTK is the first Bond film not to have the song integrated into the score. When you think about it, since the past 30 years, with nine films, only three of them actually had the artist collaborate with the composer, and only two of them actually made it as the main title song (TWINE and CR).
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