The What if thread...M had been re-cast for CR 2006? page 60

1141517192061

Comments

  • Posts: 1,964
    If OHMSS came in 1967 with Peter Hunts version Connery would of killed it. If Connery did it in 1969 after doing YOLT he would of been even more miserable in the role. Thats what I think. Also Connery looked like he was having a lot of fun in DAF.

    What was it other then the money that made him enjoy Bond again in that movie?
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,418
    fjdinardo wrote: »
    If OHMSS came in 1967 with Peter Hunts version Connery would of killed it. If Connery did it in 1969 after doing YOLT he would of been even more miserable in the role. Thats what I think. Also Connery looked like he was having a lot of fun in DAF.

    What was it other then the money that made him enjoy Bond again in that movie?

    Golf! In his contract and everything. Plus in the shooting went over for the day, he got paid a lot.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    fjdinardo wrote: »
    If OHMSS came in 1967 with Peter Hunts version Connery would of killed it. If Connery did it in 1969 after doing YOLT he would of been even more miserable in the role. Thats what I think. Also Connery looked like he was having a lot of fun in DAF.

    What was it other then the money that made him enjoy Bond again in that movie?

    He got laid again.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    As always some great thoughts and history shared here. I see this What if didn't disappoint with many different perspectives shared here. I hadn't considered that by waiting for 1968 with production that we were given Piz Gloria as Blofelds fortress. It plays such a wonderful part of the movie and I love that it still stands today. Would love to have a visit of that place one day.

    I think the reason Connery loved DAF so much was the money and the fact he could produce another couple of films. Though I think only one film ever was made as part of that deal. The fact it was also written in that he got a significant bonus if they went over schedule was an inducement.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    This next what if is inspired by @MakeshiftPython who suggested that maybe Lazenby was better suited to another adventure as his debut. So lets spring off that splendid idea.

    It's 1968, you are the producer of the Bond series. You have decided to cast a relative raw actor named George Lazenby to the role of Bond. You are impressed by his physicality and his confidence. Now that he's cast you talk with the director of the picture and look again at the script. You are having doubts about Lazenby being able to do justice to OHMSS. You decide you will look at the remaining books to see what might play well to this new fella's strengths and be a better debut for your raw actor. So for this scenario we shall change it up and pose these questions...


    What if George Lazenby had debuted as Bond in another adventure?

    Lets pick any of the Fleming novels that hadn't yet been on the big screen and that EON had the rights.

    Do you think changing the film or adventure would have set Lazenby up for longer success as Bond?

    Or would you keep it status quo and have him star in OHMSS as planned?

    What say you Mi6? What if George Lazenby's debut Bond adventure been different from OHMSS?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    Well let's look at the remaining books that were available to EON at the time:

    LALD - I think the actual 1973 film would have served as well a debut for Lazenby as it did for Moore, probably more so given how it's much more action oriented and would have benefited from Laz's physicality. But a LALD in 1969? Would have been a very different kind of film. EON intentionally steered clear of this novel because of its racial politics, and it was only because Mankiewicz chose it that it became the 8th film as he felt it was the right time to update the 1970s era of Blaxploitation.

    MR - It certainly would not have turned out like the 1979 film in any capacity. To my recollection it had always been passed over by EON because it was considered dated, and it was the last title novel to be used for a very long time before CR. Would have been interesting to see them do this in 1969, though I'm sure it would have been spiced up a bit, maybe even becoming as unlike the novel as Moore's was.

    DAF - It was almost a new Bond's debut film, so maybe Lazenby having a ball in Vegas would have worked? Like LALD, it wouldn't have had Mankiewicz in the writing process so it might have been done in a more straightfoward manner. Blofeld probably would have still replaced the Spang brothers much like how he replaced Colonel G

    TSWLM - Given that Fleming stipulated only the title could be used and none of the plot, it could have turned out to be anything the filmmakers envisioned in 1969, being the first wholly original adventure for an actor's debut (which didn't happen until GE, though that film loosely used elements of the MR novel).

    TMWTGG - Again, it probably would have been a very different beast without Mankiewicz given how far that veered off from the novel. There wouldn't be the kung fu elements. I dunno if this would have served as a good debut for anyone really, depending on what exactly they do with the material.

    Finally the short stories in, which I doubt EON ever considered as early as the 60s. They wouldn't touch these until they exhausted all their available novel titles.


    Looking at all these remaining Fleming titles, had OHMSS been skipped, I think DAF would have been the one to go for. In fact, I feel like I understand why EON would choose that after OHMSS because it held more promise than the remaining titles. Aside from GF, EON was clearly focusing on Fleming's better titles for the 60s, so in a sense the 70s basically dealt with the remaining weaker ones. When I say “weaker”, I mean as a potential Bond cinematic adventure. Even though the MR novel is very excellent, it’s pretty small scale with England being the only location. It’s really no wonder the 1979 film pretty much used the title and villain name only.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    Nicely stated! I hadn't thought of the thought process the EON was making with each passing film. I'd agree with you that it seems they did the best plots and stories early on. Though with YOLT they really strayed from the source material.

    I wonder if Lazenby had a less demanding adventure. Demanding in the amount of acting required to pull off the movie if he would have been better set up for success. Though I suppose he'd still get the crappy advice that Bond was over and he'd move on regardless.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    Yeah, it seems like Lazenby would have made that decision no matter what, even after a hell of a movie like OHMSS. I suppose he looked at Bond as a mere stepping stone to something bigger, but that's all on him, and at least once he was older he was able to acknowledge how full of himself he was in his late 20s.
  • edited November 2019 Posts: 3,333
    @MakeshiftPython gives a good account of the remaining Fleming books, but is mistaken about MR being continually passed over. We know that Harry Saltzman had contacted Gerry Anderson around the time of early Seventies, possibly around the time of DAF went into production, with the idea of making MR his next picture. Remember that the producers were alternating each Bond movie since OHMSS, with the other taking a lesser role in the decision-making process of each subsequent film. LALD was mostly a Saltzman movie and TMWTGG a Broccoli one, so the next 007 adventure would theoretically have been handled by Saltzman. We also know that Gerry Anderson worked with his long-term collaborator Tony Barwick on a seventy page draft which featured a supertanker, a villain named Zodiak and identical triplets Tic, Tac and Toe and a number of other very similar themes and ideas that would find their way into the final TSWLM script. It’s not for me to say whether the real concept of TSWLM was Anderson’s and Barwick’s, but it certainly looks that way to any outsider looking in. Of course, Saltzman parted ways with Eon and Anderson was paid (I think?) and his concept was used instead for TSWLM. I think the cost of the production might have been a contributing factor as to why we didn’t see Anderson’s full vision for MR in the mid-Seventies. For whatever reason, Broccoli and Saltzman settles on LALD, the cheaper TMWTGG and of course TSWLM. For me, had they sorted out a big budget MR in the mid-Seventies, they would’ve been ahead of the curve in Science Fiction/Fantasy rather than looking like they were chasing the trend.

    I agree with @thedove on Lazenby having a first tough acting gig with OHMSS, especially for a novice. A less demanding script that didn’t involve Bond falling in love for the first time, marrying and having to change personalities midway through the movie only to revert back, would’ve certainly helped any new actor coming into the franchise. Not to mention also being the first actor (sic) to follow on the heels of Connery. As it was, Lazenby really did have the most demanding Bond script or role that any 60s, 70s, 80s or 90s actor could have wished - or not wished for - as their first 007 outing.

    Of course Lazenby is damned with faint praise for his OHMSS work, but it would’ve been interesting to see how he would’ve faired in a more lightweight Bond caper such as TMWTGG, LALD, DAF or even TSWLM for that matter. I’m sure the critics would’ve been kinder to him.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    @bondsum very interesting, thanks for sharing that! Certainly shows it wouldn't have resembled the book all that much. I think it's too bad that they neglected much of Fleming's material for a period, before somewhat delving back to it in the 80s. DAD could have served as an interesting adaptation, if Tamahori didn't veer it so far off. Honestly, I can't read MR without seeing a disfigured Toby Stephens as Drax. Particularly that petulance he oozed with Graves.
  • Posts: 3,333
    That’s quite alright @MakeshiftPython. Though, I’m not entirely sure the original thinking was to stay true to the book. Before Anderson passed away he was asked about his early involvement in MR, and he had this to say about it: “I read the book, which frankly wasn't very exciting, and terribly out-of-date, as one would expect.” The other reason why the deal probably fell through was that Saltzman had promised Anderson a co-producing role, something that Broccoli would’ve balked at when he took over the reigns.

    I’m not exactly what you’d call a fan of DAD, so anyone involved in that terrible production I wouldn’t want to see anywhere near an authentic MR adaptation, I’m afraid. Maybe it’s for the best that a proper adaptation hasn’t been tried yet as there’s still scope for a future version. It’s the completely different narrative of YOLT that baffles me.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    Miranda Frost was at one point named Gala Brand, the name was changed because they felt it would have been a disservice to turn one of Fleming's leading ladies into a villain. It's too bad they didn't realize what a disservice that whole film was.

    My understanding of YOLT being chosen was because of its location setting. I assume the filmmakers figured that book was never going to get a proper adaptation ever down the line, just because it wasn't compatible to the cinematic formula? EON always is always talking the talk about sticking to Fleming, yet you'd have to point and ask about certain decisions made. They couldn't do OHMSS because there wasn't snow, but they still had a plethora of other novels to pick from and they chose that.
  • Posts: 11,425
    No snow in Japan?
  • edited November 2019 Posts: 3,333
    Yes, I’m extremely familiar with the early drafts of DAD (or Beyond the Ice) as it was originally called @MakeshiftPython. On reflection, I do have a soft spot for Rosamund Pike and think she was poorly, if not vastly under-used in DAD. In a completely different Bond movie, Rosamund Pike could’ve been really exceptional.

    Yes, you’re quite right about YOLT being used due to the lack of forecast snow in Austria that year when they originally wanted to make OHMSS with Connery. Subsequently, the whole Japanese fortress-by-the-sea was dropped when it was discovered by their location scouts that the Japanese didn’t build their ancient castles by the sea. Like they couldn’t have built a castle in place of a bloody giant £1m volcano set at Pinewood studios instead! Yep, go figure. Like you, I think it was just an excuse for Cubby (or whoever) to concoct their own first big Bond story away from the Fleming narrative. Maybe it was a trial-run for the future? That’s not to say Dahl didn’t come up with some pretty good ideas and dialogue, I just don’t think Lewis Gilbert was really the right man to implement them. If I’m being honest, some of YOLT looks a bit amateurish in its execution. Especially when you compare it to how Hunt shot OHMSS a few years later. Maybe had Young or Hunt directed YOLT, it might’ve been a better movie?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    I do really like the fight with Peter Mavia, which I assume was done by Hunt’s second unit crew? It felt like a precursor to the kind of fights seen in OHMSS with the faster cuts and the physicality. Compare that to the fights in both TSWLM or MR, and it’s like night and day.
  • Posts: 11,425
    bondsum wrote: »
    Yes, I’m extremely familiar with the early drafts of DAD (or Beyond the Ice) as it was originally called @MakeshiftPython. On reflection, I do have a soft spot for Rosamund Pike and think she was poorly, if not vastly under-used in DAD. In a completely different Bond movie, Rosamund Pike could’ve been really exceptional.

    Yes, you’re quite right about YOLT being used due to the lack of forecast snow in Austria that year when they originally wanted to make OHMSS with Connery. Subsequently, the whole Japanese fortress-by-the-sea was dropped when it was discovered by their location scouts that the Japanese didn’t build their ancient castles by the sea. Like they couldn’t have built a castle in place of a bloody giant £1m volcano set at Pinewood studios instead! Yep, go figure. Like you, I think it was just an excuse for Cubby (or whoever) to concoct their own first big Bond story away from the Fleming narrative. Maybe it was a trial-run for the future? That’s not to say Dahl didn’t come up with some pretty good ideas and dialogue, I just don’t think Lewis Gilbert was really the right man to implement them. If I’m being honest, some of YOLT looks a bit amateurish in its execution. Especially when you compare it to how Hunt shot OHMSS a few years later. Maybe had Young or Hunt directed YOLT, it might’ve been a better movie?

    Yeah. Pike was wasted. Bit like Famke in GE IMO and perhaps Halle Berry and Sophie Marceau as well. Bit of a pattern there...
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    Disagree about Famke being wasted. Wholeheartedly agreed on Marceau though, and pretty much everyone in TWINE which I blame on Apted rather than your less than subtle implied mere presence of an actor you intensely don't like in the role because he replaced your boy Timmy.
  • edited November 2019 Posts: 12,837
    Marceu wasn't wasted. She got one of the most interesting parts in the series and played it to perfection.

    Anyway, the question. I think if Lazenby's film had been any other Bond film he'd be even more of an afterthought than he already is. OHMSS is at least memorable as the one where he gets married, which stops the masses from completely forgetting about him. And most of the praise Lazenby gets from fans comes from how he handled the emotional/romantic scenes. Stick him in any other 60s Bond film without those elements and all you're left with is a more wooden Sean Connery.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    Great discussion again guys and gals! It is interesting to wonder what if George had started his life as Bond with a different movie. Might have helped him to have longer success in the series.

    I think it's time for a new what if scenario.

    From what I know EON has the rights to the Fleming adventures. They "own" the character. I don't believe they have the rights to any of the continuation novels. Going on this theory lets pitch our next what if.

    What if EON started to bring the continuation novels to the big screen. Whose novels do you think would translate well? Would this help to give the series some better plots?

    What say you Mi6? What if EON started doing screen adaptions of the continuation novels?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    If anything, it would at least give them the ability to make films at a faster rate when they have the groundwork laid out with all those novels. I haven't heard how Barbara Broccoli feels about using them for adaptations, but Michael G. Wilson has thrown some shade at the continuation novels and was more for writing their own material, as I suspect it's cheaper than having to pay royalties to the authors. But who knows, maybe future producers would feel more open to looking into those novels? That they actually took a few pages off of COLONEL SUN was either a change of heart or an act of desperation.

    I haven't really delved onto the novels myself with the exception of COLONEL SUN. I read some of LICENCE RENEWED, which I thought was fine reading, but didn't grab me the way Fleming novels did.
  • I don't think EON would have any interest in turning the continuation novels into movies, not least because they don't own the rights and would have pay some pretty big royalties to do so, cheaper and far easier to write a story from scratch. Not to mention the fact that they would likely rewrite most of it anyway.

    Even back in the days of Broccoli and Saltzman, the films were never too concerned with staying 100% close to the plot of the novel they were based on. That policy continued with Barbara and Wilson with CR, which, while faithful in sections, still has over half its runtime made up of scenes that weren't in the book.
  • Posts: 4,023
    But they have used elements of the Gardners ie in AVTAK
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,050
    At this point, using the continuation novels would be better than using an "original" screenplay by Purvis and Wade. Time for a change of people!
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 12,914
    vzok wrote: »
    But they have used elements of the Gardners ie in AVTAK
    I recognize those like the horse racing scheme, threatened in the elevator. But they're really generic type scenarios Bond would come round to anyway and likely will do again at some point. (It has been 35 years since the A View to a Kill production kicked off.)

    And with the reboot there's no conflict for continuity.
  • Posts: 1,879
    I thought Eon did hold the rights to the continuation novels but just opt not to adapt any of them. Besides, it's not like the creative team kept anything beyond some basics for a majority of the adaptations: character names and a few scenarios. This varies, of course, but as early as YOLT they just went original.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 4,904
    I'd say the continuation novels are uneven. Even with the same authors, like Gardner for example I liked some of the stuff he wrote but then he gave us things like Q'ute and Felix's daughter which didn't seem well thought out.

    I have always wanted to see Caber from Licence Renewed as I felt he would translate well to the screen. Even the Laird would be an interesting villain. To me Gardner was writing a hybrid with some hallmarks from the film series and then would throw in some Ian Fleming for good measure. IceBreaker is another good yarn in my opinion.

    I can't see it being any worse then SP in terms of blo-bro and some of the other changes they made.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    Even if you only use the book titles like EON did in the past, I think Licence Renewed would at least make a good title for the next Bond actor’s debut.
  • Posts: 1,879
    Even if you only use the book titles like EON did in the past, I think Licence Renewed would at least make a good title for the next Bond actor’s debut.
    But won't we Americans think it will be about getting a driver's license?
    :D
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,000
    I would hope after Quantum of Solace this wouldn’t be a problem for us yanks!
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited November 2019 Posts: 5,834
    With the return of SPECTRE in the modern-era, I always thought it would have made sense for them to look at the Union trilogy, High Time to Kill, Doubleshot and Never Dream of Dying, alongside the initial novels that introduced us to SPECTRE. While not the most easily adaptable properties, there's lot to work with..

    ...and aspects of those novels, mainly certain sequences and characters, would make great groundwork for new additions to the franchise. For example, it may have been interesting to see a blind villain in the franchise akin to the leader of the Union, or have snowy-mountain climbing sequence akin to High Time to Kill :)
Sign In or Register to comment.