Is Pierce Brosnan really all that bad ??

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  • Posts: 3,814
    mattjoes wrote: »
    I understand this is his favorite bit of Brosnan acting.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k8YpQKzl_k&t=1m11s



    (I know you like him outside of Bond, it's just a joke)

    Pierce is great in that movie.

    He really is. He's very skillful at that style of acting.
  • NS_writingsNS_writings Buenos Aires
    Posts: 544
    cwl007 wrote: »
    He isn't bad at all really, it's just his version can feel a little dated and a bit pastiche. I think as the years continue to role on and we get a new , inevitably different Bond characterisation Mr B will be re-evaluated. Hopefully more favourably. (Because one thing Pierce did do was help ensure the continuation of Bond. Had he/GE flopped in '95 we wouldn't have B25 in production that's for sure. So he deserves a bit more love just for that)

    Exactly this! In 1995, we needed that kind of Bond. We hoped for that kind of Bond. I can't honestly think Craig's Bond being successful between 1995-2002, he's great for these times, but wouldn't have been what we needed for the 90s.

  • Pierce is definitely due for a re-evaluation. especially once we've seen our final film with Craig as Bond and a new actor is chosen for the role. I'm already expecting a solid bunch of "DC wasn't all that hot" trash talkers within 12 hours of the new fellow being chosen. It's just part of the process. Some people can't love the new Bond without hating the old one... Dalton suffered from it, then Brosnan took the stick. Time wounds all heels.
  • vzok wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    In answer to the thread title - "yes"!

    Nothing good about him?

    Dalton fans hate Brosnan for "usurping" the role from him. Just like how Brosnan fans hate Craig for doing the same to Brosnan. Like how Craig fans will perceive the next actor taking the role.

    So spiteful! So petulant!
  • NS_writingsNS_writings Buenos Aires
    Posts: 544
    vzok wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    In answer to the thread title - "yes"!

    Nothing good about him?

    Dalton fans hate Brosnan for "usurping" the role from him. Just like how Brosnan fans hate Craig for doing the same to Brosnan. Like how Craig fans will perceive the next actor taking the role.

    So spiteful! So petulant!

    Not my case, really. As much as I wished Pierce to do another two, I welcomed Craig with the open arms and in fact I enjoy his films, particularly CR and SPECTRE. But you're right, I don't get why so many people has to hate the Bond which is different to the one they liked. In the end, all of the six actors were successful or we wouldn't be talking about Bond now.
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    Posts: 5,144
    vzok wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    In answer to the thread title - "yes"!

    Nothing good about him?

    Dalton fans hate Brosnan for "usurping" the role from him. Just like how Brosnan fans hate Craig for doing the same to Brosnan. Like how Craig fans will perceive the next actor taking the role.

    So spiteful! So petulant!

    Not my case, really. As much as I wished Pierce to do another two, I welcomed Craig with the open arms and in fact I enjoy his films, particularly CR and SPECTRE. But you're right, I don't get why so many people has to hate the Bond which is different to the one they liked. In the end, all of the six actors were successful or we wouldn't be talking about Bond now.

    I agree, Brosnan and Craig are my favorites, no need to choose sides. It's ridiculous.
  • People always like to make it seem like there can only be one real winner, especially between two. There can only be one, not six or more. Dumb mentality.
  • MurdockMurdock Mr. 2000
    Posts: 15,993
    With Brosnan being my favorite Bond I didn't like Craig's casting at first, but the trailer for CR got me hooked and after the parkor scene I was won over and a Craig fan. Though in recent years, I'm really not enjoying his take on Bond anymore. Well moreso, I'm just bored of it. I've kind of grown out of enjoying the "Dark and Brooding" protagonist phase and very much would love to see the more lighter, suave and gentlemanly Bond make a comeback in the vain of Brosnan and Moore. So no, Brosnan's not bad one bit.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Hamburg, near the Atlantic Hotel
    Posts: 5,835
    I never said anything bad about Pierce as a person or as a Bond actor, and before Craig came and I finally dug deeper into the Dalton movies he was my second favourite after Connery. But even then there were only two of his movies that I thought were any good, and those were obviously the first two. I disliked TWINE from the first moment that I saw it at the cinema, and think the only redeeming value of DAD was the impression I had initially during its first half that it was at least better than TWINE...but that didn't last past the invisible-car scene.

    Still, I don't blame it on Brosnan at all. With a half-way decent script and competent direction like in GE and TND he was IMO even a better Bond (in the sense of closer to Fleming's vision) than Roger Moore, not to mention Laz.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "Better cold with them on, than dead with them off, I always say."Moderator
    Posts: 11,469
    Well this Dalton fan doesn't "hate" Brosnan for replacing Dalton. My hatred is reserved for a select list of people, which Brosnan doesn't make.
    Yes, I wish Dalton had made another two Bond films in 1991 and 1993, or 1995 and 1997. But I don't hate Brosnan. He looked the part once he filled out a little in TND, and he was good in the action scenes. I just feel that he lacked presence in his own films. He put bums on seats (which was important at the time, but less so now), but in all the docs I have seen of his films, it sounds like he didn't have a plan when approaching the role. He just turned up, read the lines, made few suggestions, and left. He didn't, or didn't have a chance to, create HIS Bond.
  • NS_writingsNS_writings Buenos Aires
    Posts: 544
    He did create his Bond. A vulnerable version of the character that could still share a laugh or two. Not as humoristic as Moore, not as frivolous as Connery, but I can tell quite a number of things that were first exploited with Brosnan. The scene where he shoots Elektra down is still shocking to see, the beach scene in GE which brings back memories of Goldfinger the novel, where Bond reflects about his line of duty.

    Betrayal. He was the first Bond who had to really cope with betrayal in the line of duty. He was fooled by Elektra and Miranda Frost, by Trevelyan for a while. i go as far as saying that most of the things we have seen in the Craig films had a precedent in the Brosnan era, the thing is that back then producers didn't dare to go further with that, but it was a production decision mostly.

    -Skyfall takes a lot of TWINE: MI6 is blown, the big threat emanates from M's past, the villain is someone M wanted dead, survived and is now retaliating with everything he's got. Bond is also inactive and someone "approves" him for the mission. The villain himself is a mix between Trevelyan and Boris: a former MI6 agent going on his own but with a computer hacking knowledge. Just like in TWINE, M trusts Bond with something that leans into the personal field.

    -SPECTRE has a villain coming from Bond's past, like Trevelyan. Someone Bond thought he was dead for years.

    -QOS has Bond disavowed by MI6 with the Americans considering him a liability, just like in DAD, with M ultimately trusting him even when the CIA or NSA is pressuring her.

    -Most important of all, the role of women. I'd say without doubt Brosnan is the one who had women questioning his way of life. All of the "resign before loving me" charade started implicitly with Natalya and Paris. The idea that Bond's job is incomplatible with formal relationships (Yes, ok, OHMSS - but there it was Bond who thought of that, not the girl). In other words, Natalya and Paris set a huge precedent for Vesper and Madeleine.

    DAD has also anticipated the crude, gritty and raw tone we had in the Craig films. Compared to the first three ones, the violence is kind of strong during the first part.

    By no means I'm taking merits away of Craig's Bond, just bringing up that I do think Pierce was a mix between his predecessors but has also brought unique things we haven't seen in previous Bond. I can't imagine anyone else acting out the Elektra death scene and making it convincingly. Connery is too devil-may-care. Lazenby? We didn't know him enough. Certainly not Moore. Dalton would have been a bit overacted and maybe Craig as well. It needed that unique flair of emotion and regret that comes naturally with Pierce on his many roles.
  • There's definitely a lot of rough ideas in Brosnan's films that got perfected in Craig's run. TWINE has a lot of ideas I think would have made it a great film, but was ultimately let down by its execution. Aside from Campbell, EON didn't really pick the right directors for Brosnan's run. How the director of TURNER & HOOCH and STOP! OR MY MOM WILL SHOOT got a Bond gig will ALWAYS perplex me.
  • Posts: 2,797
    There's definitely a lot of rough ideas in Brosnan's films that got perfected in Craig's run. TWINE has a lot of ideas I think would have made it a great film, but was ultimately let down by its execution. Aside from Campbell, EON didn't really pick the right directors for Brosnan's run. How the director of TURNER & HOOCH and STOP! OR MY MOM WILL SHOOT got a Bond gig will ALWAYS perplex me.

    Spottiswoode did do a very fine political thriller called Under Fire in 1983. So maybe that got him the gig. But his Direction is uninspired on TND, particularly the finale on the stealth boat, which is really badly helmed.
  • edited September 2019 Posts: 2,797
    Well this Dalton fan doesn't "hate" Brosnan for replacing Dalton. My hatred is reserved for a select list of people, which Brosnan doesn't make.
    Yes, I wish Dalton had made another two Bond films in 1991 and 1993, or 1995 and 1997. But I don't hate Brosnan. He looked the part once he filled out a little in TND, and he was good in the action scenes. I just feel that he lacked presence in his own films. He put bums on seats (which was important at the time, but less so now), but in all the docs I have seen of his films, it sounds like he didn't have a plan when approaching the role. He just turned up, read the lines, made few suggestions, and left. He didn't, or didn't have a chance to, create HIS Bond.

    Agree with a lot of this.
    I don't hate Brosnan for taking over from Dalton. When it was announced Brossa was going to take over from Roger, before the MTM Remington Steele contract issue intervened, I knew he was wrong choice then. Mark Gatiss made a good point about GE, that it was a film by a committee, here are all the traits of Bond, the car, the gadgets etc, but they are presented in such a bland way, and Brossa is part of that, for me, he wears the tux, reads the lines and doesn't fall over the furniture, but that's not enough to be Bond. Brossa just didn't (doesnt) cut it for me.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,432
    The few people I’ve met over the years who actively dislike Brosnan, and like you to know it, are all very similar in personality. Personable enough, knowledgeable, but there’s always a vacant soullessness to them. Unironic misanthropes.
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    edited September 2019 Posts: 5,144
    RC7 wrote: »
    The few people I’ve met over the years who actively dislike Brosnan, and like you to know it, are all very similar in personality. Personable enough, knowledgeable, but there’s always a vacant soullessness to them. Unironic misanthropes.

    Yeah they seem to have zero sense of humor (or as dry as a Martini), and are constantly angry... Ironically just like their favorite Bond actor lol

    It's funny, it's almost like with dogs and their owners. People here seem to share certain characteristics of their favorite Bonds. Brosnan guys always go for the puns and the shitty jokes in any situation. Dalton fans just seem to be pissed off and angry about anything. Obviously there are many exception to that rule, there are even people who like both equally, but you can still notice it to a large degree.
  • Posts: 5,154
    RC7 wrote: »
    The few people I’ve met over the years who actively dislike Brosnan, and like you to know it, are all very similar in personality. Personable enough, knowledgeable, but there’s always a vacant soullessness to them. Unironic misanthropes.

    Hey, I love Brosnan, but I'm an ironic misanthrope. See, the irony wasn't lost on me.

    Seriously now, I totally get what you mean. Soulless people, they are, unless they only criticise DAD. In that case, they just have good taste.

    ;)
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "Better cold with them on, than dead with them off, I always say."Moderator
    Posts: 11,469
    Call us angry, call us miserable, call Dalton fans whatever you want. But at the end of the day Brosnan fans are getting a taste of what Dalton fans had back in the 90's, and they don't like it. Fancy that. All fun and games writing Dalton off as a failure. Now Craig is on the scene.

    Funny you talk of angry Dalton fans, @00Agent. I seem to remember a group of absolutely not angry Brosnan fans absolutely not setting up a campaign to get Craig removed as Bond. Yeah, not angry at all. Dalton fans get angry at Brosnan. Right, so Brosnan fans get apoplectic with rage at Craig, start a campaign to remove him as Bond, and even go out of their way mock every possible pic of him.
  • One thing Dalton and Brosnan have in common is that their tenures were unexpectedly cut short. More so for Dalton, but it was considered a shock in 2004 that EON was parting way with Brosnan. DAD may have been a critical failure, but it was the highest grossing Bond of the series at that time, and Brosnan was not shy in expressing he was open to doing one more film. I know that I and many others were at least expecting him to have a run that lasted as long as Connery or Moore, as he seemed to be as popular as those two, so why would his run be any different? I thought of DAD being his MR, and that the following films would scale back in a manner that Moore's did.

    So it would be no surprise if certain fans of those two feel their Bonds were robbed of a longer legacy, and that resentment would spill over onto the actor that took over the role. Given that Craig may leave with fiveunder his belt (which no actor has done since Moore neary 40 years ago) in a time span of over a decade, I don't expect to see a number of Craig fans be resentful of who the next actor will be. Like Connery and Moore, I think many of us will believe Craig did more than enough for the franchise and that when he bowed it that it was simply the right time. At least, I like to think that's how most of us will feel.
  • edited September 2019 Posts: 12,279
    Brosnan gets a lot of stick for not being original enough but the thing about Bond is that it's a role that gets harder to be original in as more actors come along. Unlike say Doctor Who, where you have free reign to completely reinvent it every time, Bond has a set template you've got to stick to because it has source material. There's really only so many ways to play it and by the time Brosnan came along it'd already pretty much all been done before. Craig's Bond isn't a completely original take either, he just got away with it because of how generally overlooked Dalton was and because of how much more consistent his scripts were with his character. And that's not a knock on either of them because as I said, it had more or less all been done before by 1995. Connery set the standard, Moore emphasised the lighter stuff and Dalton emphasised the darker stuff. Brosnan, Craig and every Bond after them will all owe a debt to those actors simply because they were there first. It's unavoidable imo.

    I've always loved Brosnan. He's effortlessly cool and charismatic and carries his films in a way none of the others had to. Moore, Dalton and Craig all got films tailored to their strengths. Brosnan didn't. Look at DAD, it's constantly switching from gritty and hard edged to Moore era silliness yet Brosnan gives it his all and somehow still makes his Bond seem like the same person in all those scenes and keeps the film from completely falling apart. It seems weird to say this because of how popular he was at the time but now that Dalton is getting the respect he deserves I think Brosnan is easily the most underrated Bond.
  • Craig's Bond isn't a completely original take either, he just got away with it because of how generally overlooked Dalton was and because of how much more consistent his scripts were with his character.

    I think there's more to this. When Dalton got the role he basically ignored whatever Connery and Moore did and focused solely on the writing of Ian Fleming, and IMO 110% succeeded in bringing that specific characterization of Bond to life on the big screen, and that's exactly why I don't think he was embraced by audiences. Connery and Moore were notable for giving Bond a sense of humor combined with their own swagger. Dalton ignored those aspects. This is why you often heard complaints that Dalton took the role too seriously. He wasn't playing Bond as a sex symbol, because Fleming's Bond wasn't what Connery or Moore were. I think had Dalton had the opportunity to move forward with a third film, there would have had to be a re-calibration of his take on the character and make him less intense and more closer to the cinematic idea of Bond. IMO, I think he could have succeeded. If you go look at the film THE ROCKTEER, that's basically cinematic Bond where Dalton is turning up the charm and swagger in a way he never did with Bond because that was not what he was going for in TLD and LTK.

    With that said, Craig was definitely bringing back a level of intensity that Dalton did 20 years earlier, but the biggest difference is that instead of going full Fleming like Dalton had, he retained the cinematic Bond's humor and swagger. When CR came out, my summation of Craig Bond was that he's a fusion of Fleming's cynicism and Connery's machismo. I think it's great that Dalton is getting much more appreciation in light of Craig's run, but I'm not entirely sure a full Fleming approach could ever work for the cinematic Bond that is recognized by our cultural lexicon.

    But that doesn't mean a full Fleming would be incompatible in other mediums. In theory, the best place that Fleming interpretation can thrive at is on Netflix. There, you could drop all the cinematic iconography and just do straight up period adaptations of the novels, as a film on a streaming service would not have the same connotations of what we expect in a crowded movie theater.
  • NS_writingsNS_writings Buenos Aires
    Posts: 544
    00Agent wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    The few people I’ve met over the years who actively dislike Brosnan, and like you to know it, are all very similar in personality. Personable enough, knowledgeable, but there’s always a vacant soullessness to them. Unironic misanthropes.

    Yeah they seem to have zero sense of humor (or as dry as a Martini), and are constantly angry... Ironically just like their favorite Bond actor lol

    It's funny, it's almost like with dogs and their owners. People here seem to share certain characteristics of their favorite Bonds. Brosnan guys always go for the puns and the shitty jokes in any situation. Dalton fans just seem to be pissed off and angry about anything. Obviously there are many exception to that rule, there are even people who like both equally, but you can still notice it to a large degree.

    =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
  • Posts: 5,154
    What about the ones who are Dalton and Brosnan fans? ;)
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Defender of Timothy Dalton, George Lazenby, Éric Serra & the Bond double bill of '83!
    Posts: 4,765
    Univex wrote: »
    What about the ones who are Dalton and Brosnan fans? ;)

    That would include me. Tim is my absolute favourite of all the Bond actors, but I’m a massive Pierce fan as well.
  • Posts: 5,154
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    What about the ones who are Dalton and Brosnan fans? ;)

    That would include me. Tim is my absolute favourite of all the Bond actors, but I’m a massive Pierce fan as well.

    And me. Both are great. And so are the others. I'm so glad there hasn't been a Bond actor I dislike so far.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 18,190
    Tim is my favourite Bond. Pierce is the one I watched in theatres as a teenager. I like Pierce. I simply think that with the exception of GE, he was never given a Bond film that played to his strengths. Craig is a much more fortunate man in that way.

    Pierce should have been given his From Russia With Love. Instead, he got a DAF, TMWTGG and MR to work with.
  • edited September 2019 Posts: 5,154
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Tim is my favourite Bond. Pierce is the one I watched in theatres as a teenager. I like Pierce. I simply think that with the exception of GE, he was never given a Bond film that played to his strengths. Craig is a much more fortunate man in that way.

    Pierce should have been given his From Russia With Love. Instead, he got a DAF, TMWTGG and MR to work with.

    This is so true.

    @DarthDimi has worded better than anyone could.

    BTW, the one Bond actor I could possibly see getting even better as Bond with age is Dalton. He looks menacing nowadays. Pierce looks good but I'm afraid he lost his islander looks and gained a mid-atlantic accent with a California tan. If he passed as english at one point, he doesn't now, IMO.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 886
    Brosnan gets a lot of stick for not being original enough but the thing about Bond is that it's a role that gets harder to be original in as more actors come along. Unlike say Doctor Who, where you have free reign to completely reinvent it every time, Bond has a set template you've got to stick to because it has source material. There's really only so many ways to play it and by the time Brosnan came along it'd already pretty much all been done before. Craig's Bond isn't a completely original take either, he just got away with it because of how generally overlooked Dalton was and because of how much more consistent his scripts were with his character. And that's not a knock on either of them because as I said, it had more or less all been done before by 1995. Connery set the standard, Moore emphasised the lighter stuff and Dalton emphasised the darker stuff. Brosnan, Craig and every Bond after them will all owe a debt to those actors simply because they were there first. It's unavoidable imo.

    I've always loved Brosnan. He's effortlessly cool and charismatic and carries his films in a way none of the others had to. Moore, Dalton and Craig all got films tailored to their strengths. Brosnan didn't. Look at DAD, it's constantly switching from gritty and hard edged to Moore era silliness yet Brosnan gives it his all and somehow still makes his Bond seem like the same person in all those scenes and keeps the film from completely falling apart. It seems weird to say this because of how popular he was at the time but now that Dalton is getting the respect he deserves I think Brosnan is easily the most underrated Bond.

    I agree with this. By the time Brosnan took the role, every facet of the character had been covered. Connery had done the cool, Roger had done the Suave, Lazenby had done the vulnerability and Dalton had done the hard nosed. Obviously there are more nuances to each of those, but I am sure you get my drift. I am not sure there was anywhere left to go for a truly original version of Bond.

    When Pierce took over he essentially took a slice of Connery, and a slice of Moore and put them together. No bad thing in my book.

    Daniel Craig has basically done the same thing, just with Lazenby and Dalton.
  • BondStuBondStu Moonraker 6
    edited September 2019 Posts: 357
    Brosnan fans hate Craig for doing the same to Brosnan.

    I hate to admit it but I was sort of in that camp. It wasn't Craig I hated - my anger was at the people behind the scenes. I wouldn't have been against Craig nor the idea of a reboot... but I really wished Brosnan could have gotten one more.

    People aren't daft. After DAD people could see that this couldn't go on forever. But there was ONE MORE they could've squeezed out of Brosnan.

    I think it would have been nice if he got to make that movie - and maybe they could've hung a campaign on the fact that it was gonna be his last one. Give him a chance to say goodbye to the role and fans a chance to say goodbye to him.

    I think Brosnan really deserved better than he got.
  • edited September 2019 Posts: 3,088
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