RMS Titanic Weekend

haserot

TheWizardOfIce said:
How can people not know its real? What sort of education do some people have?

I'd be on careful ground if you start thinking events from history are just fictional screenplays. Dont want to make that mistake with Schindlers List - denying the holocaust is a crime in parts of Europe and in law ignorance is no defence.

its funny you mention the holocaust.... because there are quite a few who believe it didn't happen as well....

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t553062/

how ignorance is allowed to procreate is astonishing to me - there should be a law.

BondFanMedia

The story of TITANIC is not only sad and an epic tale of the gilded age and the people living in it - it is also a reminder, that technology can´t surpass nature and that we aren´t invincible or "unsinkable". I have researched the ships history for 15 years now and especially this centenary year brought a lot of new aspects and evidence on the sinking and the wreck site. Now, after 100 years, we should take the time to remember this tragedy and tell future generations about it, so that we won´t see Twitter feeds like the one above anymore.

However, we shouldn´t loose sight over far greater tragedies that happened and learn about them. TITANIC´s legacy and fame was pushed by films and books over the years, but does anyone remember the Wilhelm Gustloff sinking in 1945 with around 9.000 refugees who died? Just let this incredible number go through your head for a bit.

Have a look at this brilliant website to check the facts and see how that far greater tragedy looked like: http://www.wilhelmgustloff.com/index.htm

The MS Estonia sinking didn´t have these high losses, but still only 138 of almost 1000 people on board were saved. The latest accident with the Costa Concordia in Italy needlessly cost 39 lives and probably even more. Both were a result of human failure!

TITANIC and all it´s glory was the 9/11 of it´s day and that´s why we and so many others still carry this story in our hearts and minds.

TheWizardOfIce

haserot said:

its funny you mention the holocaust.... because there are quite a few who believe it didn't happen as well....

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t553062/

how ignorance is allowed to procreate is astonishing to me - there should be a law.

Ironically wasnt it the Nuremburg law that addressed this in the 30s?

That said I totally agree with you. What ever happened to natural selection? These days we keep idiots alive with handouts and allow them to procreate in ever greater numbers meaning in a few thousand years the human gene pool will have been diluted to a point where we cant even create fire any more.

BondFanMedia said:
Have a look at this brilliant website to check the facts and see how that far greater tragedy looked like: http://www.wilhelmgustloff.com/index.htm

The MS Estonia sinking didn´t have these high losses, but still only 138 of almost 1000 people on board were saved. The latest accident with the Costa Concordia in Italy needlessly cost 39 lives and probably even more. Both were a result of human failure!

Thanks for that - never heard of the Wilhelmgustloff.

I'm not an expert but wasnt the Estonia due to the bow door shearing off in heavy seas rather than human failure?

I suppose you can argue that poor design is human failure.

BAIN123

Saw A Night to Remember last night.

Very good movie and its easy to see where James Cameron got his influences from. I've always liked his film though - even though its "cool" to hate it.

w2bond

Forget the Titanic, half the kids don't even know who Osama Bin Laden is!

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/search-engine-results-reveal-teens-dont-know-who-obl-is/

BondFanMedia

TheWizardOfIce said:

I'm not an expert but wasnt the Estonia due to the bow door shearing off in heavy seas rather than human failure?

I suppose you can argue that poor design is human failure.

True, the design wasn´t sufficient for the rough Baltic Sea where the Estonia sank. Human Failure in that case only applies to the [...]"combination of not latching the vehicle level visor properly and not distributing the weight of the cargo evenly through which the ship listed and took on water."[...] http://voices.yahoo.com/the-carnival-splendor-other-passenger-7156650.html

I´m no maritime expert, but there is always a human error element somewhere.
For the most recent event in Italy, I hope the Captain of the Costa Concordia goes to prison for his incredible mixture of recklessness and cowardice. His quote "I accidentally stumbled into a lifeboat" says it all.

TheWizardOfIce

Get on the channel 4 I-player. The recordings between the Costa Concordia captain and the coast guard are priceless (well would be if people werent actually dying at the time). Every stereotype of Italians with their tanks with reverse gears only in the heat of battle proved true. Bloke was first in the lifeboat. Has to go down as the biggest coward in history.
Even in an Italian court he has to get 10 years at least.

In most disasters of this sort its usually a combination of many tiny human errors. Titanic had loads: not enough lifeboats, binoculars locked away, going too fast, slightly cheaper rivets, incorrect manouvering when ice was sighted, the guy in the Californian turning off his radio.

And then the weather being dead calm and moonless. Take any one of these out of the equation and most people if not all survive.

Chevron

Over the years I read a lot of books about the Titanic, but it wasn't until the time of the Cameron movie that I "got" it.

Not because of the movie though.

A local newspaper reprinted an interview with a survivor that they had from years before. After the ship sank he said the noise of the people left in the water like a football crowd.

That was when I "got" it.

BondFanMedia

TheWizardOfIce said:
Get on the channel 4 I-player. The recordings between the Costa Concordia captain and the coast guard are priceless (well would be if people werent actually dying at the time). Every stereotype of Italians with their tanks with reverse gears only in the heat of battle proved true. Bloke was first in the lifeboat. Has to go down as the biggest coward in history.
Even in an Italian court he has to get 10 years at least.

In most disasters of this sort its usually a combination of many tiny human errors. Titanic had loads: not enough lifeboats, binoculars locked away, going too fast, slightly cheaper rivets, incorrect manouvering when ice was sighted, the guy in the Californian turning off his radio.

And then the weather being dead calm and moonless. Take any one of these out of the equation and most people if not all survive.

I heard them on TV...totally priceless indeed. I hope he gets 10 years. He´ll never work as a captain again thank god. This was his 2nd accident.

Titanic, as you said, is full of human errors. I´m not sure about the Californian - sure, they turned the radio off but did ask TITANIC before if they needed help and they were given a false position. TITANIC was in fact further away from the Californian than the officers had thought. It was wrong thinking at the time, everybody thought the ship was truly unsinkable...a rumour not brought into circulation by the owners but by a newspaper report. 100 years later, too many people still believe far too much that´s circulating in the media.

TheWizardOfIce

Before they hit idnt the Titanic radio guy also tell someone (maybe the Californian) to stop blocking the airwaves with ice warnings so he could send messages from the 1st class passengers? And then that guy then switched his radio off and went to bed. Not sure if he was close enough to help but at the very least the ignoring of ice warnings is another inexcusable error.

BondFanMedia

TheWizardOfIce said:
Before they hit idnt the Titanic radio guy also tell someone (maybe the Californian) to stop blocking the airwaves with ice warnings so he could send messages from the 1st class passengers? And then that guy then switched his radio off and went to bed. Not sure if he was close enough to help but at the very least the ignoring of ice warnings is another inexcusable error.

Correct. Titanics radio operator told the Californian to shut up because his headphones were on full volume while he sent the passenger messages. The incoming signals must have been disturbingly loud. Titanic had received over 12 ice warnings at that point.
The radio operator on the Californian went away from the radio but was ordered back by Captain Lord because they had seen lights and rockets at the horizon and weren´t sure if it´s another ship or the stars reflecting on the water. Lord wanted the operator to check for messages - that´s when they caught the distress signal with the wrong position coordinates. That Captain Lord didn´t decide to rush to the aid of the sinking Titanic was later proven in court and he lost his job and reputation over it.

Murphy´s Law - everything that could go wrong that nicht, went wrong

nick_007

The truly sad part, I believe, is that had she hit the berg head on, the Titanic would not have sunk.

From what I remember studying, she was designed to remain afloat even with a torn off bow, so long as no more than four of her watertight compartments were breached. The ship would have been disabled, sure, but passengers would have been able to remain on board until rescue arrived.

It also didn't help that the Atlantic waters were frigid. Back then, even Thomas Andrews would not have known about the ductility of metals under various temperatures, something engineers account for all the time now. What this means is the iron was not designed to retain it's properties under cold temperatures and became very brittle, shattering under applied load.

Baltimore_007

It's an almost certainty if the vessel had hit the Iceberg head on it would of merely damaged the bow of the liner, the ship would of remained afloat with minimal damage, but they tried to get by on her starboard side with awful consequences, it is a real pity in hindsight they missed the most obvious actions, but in the extreme of the moment they did what they deemed suitable, took a gamble maybe, and the rest is history, the ship was travelling beyond it's recommended speed at time of incident as mentioned

The weather was colder than usual for April, and people simply wouldn't have survived for long in the 35 degree waters of the Atlantic that night, Cameron's film, despite how I feel personally, represents the water scenes very well for what actually happened, it would of been curtains for anybody left in the ocean that night

Here's a quick run down of the events of the night while the memory is still fresh in our minds

April 10

9-11am / Passengers board ship at Southampton docks, the ship sets sail at midday

6-20pm The Titanic arrives at Cherbourg, France to pick up more passengers

April 11

11-15 am Arrives at Cork, Republic Of Ireland (then Queenstown) to pick up more passengers, this would be the last stopping point before the disaster

April 12 & 13

The liner sails towards New York through the east Atlantic in peaceful waters

April 14

During the course of the day a high number of Iceberg warnings are recieved by the ship's radio operators

11-40 pm, Lookout on the Titanic spots an iceberg looming large ahead. The Iceberg strikes the ship on her starboard side towards the front end (Bow)

11-50pm, Water rushes in and rises to a level of five meters at front of vessel

12-00am, Captain E J Smith is told the ship will sink and has little more than two hours to stay afloat, he gives the order to call for assistance

April 15

12-05am, Orders for lifeboats to be used are issued, as are passengers and crew to assemble on deck, there is room only for less than half the total number on board (2,210 estimated)

12-27am, Lifeboats fill up with women and children as priority, The Carpathia, 59 miles south east of the Titanic's position picks up a distress call and is on route, four hours away

12-47am, The first lifeboat is lowered, it holds 65 persons, but only leaves with less than 30 on board. First distress rockets fired. Nine rockets estimated fired over liner

2-06am, The final lifeboat leaves the stricken liner, there are still over 1,500 persons on board The Titanic at this time

2-16am, The last radio message from the ship is sent. Captain Smith, announces 'that it's every man for himself'

2-20am, The Titanic, under severe pressure, breaks in half

2-22am, The stern of the ship seems to settle back, levelling for a short time, then fills with water and tilts before sinking

3-35am, The Carpathia's rockets are spotted by survivors on the lifeboats

4-12am, the first lifeboat is picked up by Carpathia

9-00am, The Carpathia leaves the area with some 720 survivors from the ship onboard

April 18

9-10pm, The Carpathia arrives in New York

April 19 - May 24

An inquiry is held in the United States about what happened

April 22 - May 15

A number of ships are sent to the disaster zone to recover bodies - a little over 300 (from the 1,500 left on board), are recovered

May 3 - July 2

The British Board of Trades holds an inquiry into the disaster

(think I need a lie down after that)

Bounine

Don't schools students in America only learn about American history? Disgraceful.

BondFanMedia

Titanics sister ship Olympic had a collision with severe bow damage and reached port safely. So, a head-on collision with the iceberg would have probably been a safe option. Also, as a golden rule of commanding a ship, you don´t put your engines in reverse or full stop if you have to perform a sharp turn. Sadly, they did.

haserot

Bounine said:
Don't schools students in America only learn about American history? Disgraceful.

lol.. being an american myself, if students can't even learn our nation's history - then whats the point of complicating their simple brains with world history... it's a sad state of affairs... i remember when i took history class in high school (10 years ago)... i dare say, i was probably the one out of 20 or so students who was actually paying attention, and understanding the material.... the rest either didn't care - or just stared at their text books like zombies...... one time, i remember answering questions the teacher was asking, and a girl leaned over and said "you're awfully smart at this."... i pointed to the text book and said, "all the answers are right here (you half wit)"...

TheWizardOfIce

nick_007 said:
The truly sad part, I believe, is that had she hit the berg head on, the Titanic would not have sunk.

From what I remember studying, she was designed to remain afloat even with a torn off bow, so long as no more than four of her watertight compartments were breached. The ship would have been disabled, sure, but passengers would have been able to remain on board until rescue arrived.

It also didn't help that the Atlantic waters were frigid. Back then, even Thomas Andrews would not have known about the ductility of metals under various temperatures, something engineers account for all the time now. What this means is the iron was not designed to retain it's properties under cold temperatures and became very brittle, shattering under applied load.

Good point about the coldness. Never really thought about that before but it could certainly have been a factor in the shearing of the weak rivets. At any rate stronger rivets might have reduced the length of the tear crucially keeping it within the 4 watertight compartments.

Regarding smashing head on into the berg, I think we can all agree that this would have been the safest option in the time they had, but I defy anyone here to say that this is the course of action they would have chosen themselves on the night.

I dont care who you are or what your experience at sea is- you are on the bridge of the most famous and expensive ship in history on its maiden voyage. Your first instinct is not going to be to rationally calculate what is will best keep the ship afloat (particularly in view of the fact that I doubt the whole concept about making sure no more than 4 watertight compartments were flooded was hammered home to the crew) and keep the bow pointing directly for the berg but what is going to save your job.

If the Titanic had limped into New York with its bow completely smashed, then no one at the White Star Line would have wanted to say 'we were going too fast, had ignored repeated ice warnings and had no binoculars but thanks to the heroic decision making on the bridge everyone was saved'. They would have said 'the officer on the bridge reacted to slowly. We could have easily missed the berg but for the ineptitude of this man who has now been sacked.'

An investigation would conclude that the berg would have been missed if they had ported around it correctly and I doubt the idea that it could have grazed the berg and breached 5 compartments would have even arisen. Murdoch would have carried the can and would have struggled to get another job after such a high profile 'mistake'. None of us would ever have heard of the story and no one would be aware he was a hero. Such are the miliseconds of fate that can determine our lives and the lives, in this instance, of thousands.

This article: http://titanic-model.com/db/db-02/rm-db-2.html
is quite informative particularly in view of the 'porting around' manouvere which would have avoided collision and in respect of Captain Lord who was vilified but actually took very stringent measures against the ice in terms of speed and lookouts that Smith (under duress from Ismay? Although I dont think this has ever been proved) did not.

JWESTBROOK

Bounine said:
Don't schools students in America only learn about American history? Disgraceful.

We *learn* about the Sumerians, Egyptians, and later the early Chinese. Then we go on to Europe, the Renaissance, onto Industrialization and exploration, and from there on to South America and up to modern times.

Whether individuals pay attention, is a different story. But I remember learning a lot about Titanic in 4th-6th grade. But nothing since.

We have programs that allow students to take college courses while in high school. My school is a high school - community college hybrid. I take high school classes the first two years to earn my diploma, and then I take college courses the last 2-3 years at a community college. Its all paid for too.

I focused my college work on political science and history, so I've had a lot of international study, but its not the normal amount. I graduate next month with a high school diploma and an Associates Degree.

Bounine

Hmm, I just heard from someone a while back that they only teach American history in the USA. Obviously it's good to learn about your own history but major events around the world should be taught too.

Do you learn about World War 1and 2?

JWESTBROOK

Bounine said:
Hmm, I just heard from someone a while back that they only teach American history in the USA. Obviously it's good to learn about your own history but major events around the world should be taught too.

Do you learn about World War 1and 2?

Yes, yes of course. Stunningly, I learned most about WW1 & WW2 from American history and our involvement. Not necessarily the international stories. But we did cover that in my college courses.

But in my basic education through high school, we considered 'modern times' WWII and on for some reason. Not very modern to me if its a century old!

nick_007

Yes, my course of action would have been to try to avoid the iceberg, too. Sometimes it's just too bad they didn't not see it and rammed right into it.

Also: I didn't know the titanic stopped in Cork. My Irish side of the family comes from there.

haserot

our basic american history education - that i can remember through years of primary schooling.. goes all the way back to Columbus' discovery, up through the Pilgrimage, Salem Witch Trials, the Revolution, Civil War, World War 1 and 2 - and stopping right around the Vietnam war...

as for the World Wars, we did touch briefly on what the causes were in the international arena, which lead to the wars, and our eventual involvement..

we do learn about other countries and some world history as well - whether the student chooses to retain the information, well - thats up to the individual....

but i remember learning about the history of the Sumerians, Egyptians... Greek and Roman history - a little bit Chinese history, but not a lot - i remember having to do a report on China in 7th grade, as well as Slovakia - why Slovakia?.. as part of an assignment, each student in our class got a country we had to study and report about to the class............ in a way - i miss school lol.

Bounine

I don't miss school. :)

DaltonCraig007

I heard on a tv show here that the radio operators were not members of the 'white star line' or considered part of the crew, but they were only workers of the radio company... so they had no obligations/orders to give the Captain the warnings of icebergs ahead, but merely strict orders to send and receive messages of the passengers.....

BondFanMedia

DaltonCraig007 said:
I heard on a tv show here that the radio operators were not members of the 'white star line' or considered part of the crew, but they were only workers of the radio company... so they had no obligations/orders to give the Captain the warnings of icebergs ahead, but merely strict orders to send and receive messages of the passengers.....

I sincerely doubt that. What I know for sure is, that what you wrote above applied to Titanics band. After the sinking, White Star stated several times, that the musicians weren´t part of the employed crew and so their relatives couldn´t get any money or claim anything from White Star. The fiancee of violinist John Law Hume was pregnant at the time and was told, to re-apply for money from the Titanic Relief Fund once she had born the baby.

BondFanMedia

Just did a bit of research again - the radio operators were technically not part of the crew BUT were paid by the White Star Line. So, they would have naturally acted on their behalf, including informing the captain of any messages or warnings. With all the errors of that maiden voyage, forgetting to properly instruct the Marconi operators about that surely wasn´t one of them.

http://www.titanic-titanic.com/warnings.shtml

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