"We have nothing to declare?": Let's discuss... The Living Daylights (1987)/ Poll

St_George

Well, I hope we do have something to declare... for, yes, this is the latest thread dedicated to a single, individual Bond flick in which we can all comment, discuss and pick it to pieces, however positively or negatively (or both we see fit). And this time it's the turn of Timbo - yup, in the spotlight is his debut as 007 peeps, The Living Daylights, no less.

Now, it may be no secret around these parts (especially if you've known me a while from the old place) that I'm not the greatest fan of Dalton as Bond; a fine actor unquestionably, but for me not a natural 007. And, must say, I'm not TLD's greatest fan either. But it's not all poor old Dalters' fault, let me just say. Sure, I think he went too heavy and world-weary in the role (to my senses, at times his incarnation of Fleming's hero borders on a serious depressive) and, yet, rather oddly there's one too many clumsy overly-arty, theatrical flourishes in his version too - as if he's over-playing the role. However, Timbo aside, TLD would rate higher for me if it were directed better - it tries to be gritty, hard-edged and exotic in the FRWL mould, but comes across a bit flat and looks a little dull (unlike, say, CR of 20 years later). In all fairness, this could be put down as much to the fact it was made in the '80s - a decade in which espionage thrillers did tend to be a bt 'colourless' - as to the fact it was directed by the not-the-most-inventive John Glen. And, for me, while Kara Milovy (although a bit wet) is a perfectly decent Bond Girl, the film's villains are all completely pants. But, for all that, most of the action set-pieces - especially the epic if over-played Afghan climax - genuinely impress.

So, overall, not a brilliant Bond entry for me, but far from terrible; there's a terrific 007 adventure trying to get out of TLD, it just can't quite decide exactly which one to let out - mind, sadly functional old John Glen probably couldn't deliver that if it did.

Anyhoo, that's my two cents' worth, now how about yours?

(Oh, and do vote in the poll to the side there, folks!) :)

jaguar007

TLD is top 5 for me and much of that is due to Dalton's brilliant portrayal of James Bond. The opening scene in Bratislava as well as the hotel scene with Pushkin are two of my favorite scenes in the series. I do agree a bit about the film being a bit "colorless", but as you said, it was 1980s film style.

Luds

jaguar007 said:
TLD is top 5 for me and much of that is due to Dalton's brilliant portrayal of James Bond. The opening scene in Bratislava as well as the hotel scene with Pushkin are two of my favorite scenes in the series. I do agree a bit about the film being a bit "colorless", but as you said, it was 1980s film style.

I agree fully. TLD imo is the last masterpiece in the franchise. Outstanding story, cast, acting, phenomenal score. It's probably the movie I have watched the most stand alone as I tend not to watch Bonds other than for Bondathons. TLD is one movie I always feel like watching.

Nice pic of maryam.
Great film.
The start of the film is one of the best of any movie from the pts to the milkmans delivery.
Music is brilliant.

jaguar007

Luds said:

I agree fully. TLD imo is the last masterpiece in the franchise.

For years I felt the same, that it was the last masterpiece of the series, until CR that is.

PrinceKamalKhan

St_George said:

"Quantum of Daylights"? :-S Nice find, SG. B-)

Luds said:

jaguar007 said:
TLD is top 5 for me and much of that is due to Dalton's brilliant portrayal of James Bond. The opening scene in Bratislava as well as the hotel scene with Pushkin are two of my favorite scenes in the series. I do agree a bit about the film being a bit "colorless", but as you said, it was 1980s film style.

I agree fully. TLD imo is the last masterpiece in the franchise. Outstanding story, cast, acting, phenomenal score. It's probably the movie I have watched the most stand alone as I tend not to watch Bonds other than for Bondathons. TLD is one movie I always feel like watching.

jaguar007 said:

Luds said:

I agree fully. TLD imo is the last masterpiece in the franchise.

For years I felt the same, that it was the last masterpiece of the series, until CR that is.

Well put, gentlemen. TLD is to 1980s Bond cinema what FRWL was to 1960s Bond and CR was to 2000s Bond. I like how Perilagu Khan called Dalton and Miss d'Abo the "Bogie and Bacall" of the Bond series and completely agree with his assessment. FYEO tends to get all the praise for being the "down to earth/back to Fleming/serious Cold War espionage 007 film" of its decade but IMHO, TLD deserves that title much more. The best Bond film made post-TB and a massive improvement over the tired AVTAK. Dalton injected a lot of fresh blood and energy that was missing in Moore's final entry while Maibaum & Wilson provided one of the series' most intriguing and involving scripts.

Rating from me: 10/10

PKK

P.S. MajorDSmythe, your input is requested here in this thread.

BAIN123

Sorry to break up the love affair but I'm going to side more with St. George on this one.

Daylights is a solid film but not one of the true greats IMO. I'd give it a 7 and its about number 13 or so in my list. The film does have at its heart a solid performance from Dalton, who certainly gives a much-needed harder edge to Bond. It also has a terrific score from John Barry and some stand-out action scenes.

However the plot to me sometimes feels a little...flat. I'd be lying if I said I was truely gripped when Bond and Kara were in the desert and it doesn't really help that the main villains of the piece are as memorable as Emilo Largo in NSNA. It's not that they are bad actors, it's more that their characters don't seem to have a real sense of menace to them. That's what a good spy story needs at its heart, a threatening, compelling main adversary. Necros is perhaps the best of the 3 baddies. However he's really a henchman, not the big cheese.

I also had a few issues with Kara the last time I watched TLD (which wasn't long ago). She's sweet but there's something very....puppy-like...about her which occasionally grates a bit. I prefer the sassy, independent girl in a Bond film myself. Give me Pussy Galore, Natalya or Vesper anyday. The love story between the 2 is cute but thats it really. I don't think they are Bogey/Becall by any means, in fact I think Pierce Brosnan and Izabella Scorupco came closer to that description...but I'm probably going to get shot down for that :p

Then finally there's Caroline Bliss as Moneypenny
~X(

It sounds like I don't like Daylights :-S I do, but I just don't think it's great.

I hate to say this but I think overall CR alone trumps both of Dalton's films - and that's coming from someone who prefers Dalton in the part. Royale was just brighter and had a far more energetic feel to it.

NicNac

While @BAIN123 agrees with @St_George, I am split down the middle.

I am also a long-term nay sayer as far as Dalts is concerned. His mannered, tortured, teeth-grinding, eye-swivelling huffing and puffing Bond is theatrical and OTT (IMHO). Cinema acting is far more subtle than that, and a technique Messrs Connery and Craig have off to an art.
And he's a bit weedy looking as well if I may say so.

Anyways, despite that his relationship with Maryam/Kara is delicate, sweet and believable. Despite Glen's short comings as a director he develops Kara's feelings for Bond at just the right pace. Dalton and d'Abo look so good together you can fully understand why she ended up with the part. She plays the vulnerable, trusting Kara perfectly without turning her in to an airhead (unlike some I could mention cough* Talisa Soto).

Caroline Bliss is simply awful. I mean totally terrible. Caught between Lois Maxwell's sassy Penny and Samantha Bond's knowing and witty take on the part, Bliss plays her like a love-struck teenager. Yuk.

Jeroen Krabbe is terrific and chews the scenery up in true Bond villain style. Art Malik is good as well.

John Terry? Has an actor ever made the sort of impact where you can't remember him 3 seconds after he leaves the screen, quite so successfully?

The film itself moves along nicely and never becomes boring. It's Glen's best film by a mile (even though he himself thinks the bitter and nasty LTK is better). Therefore it's the best Bond film of the 80s. Honestly Benny, it is!

;-)

BAIN123

It's weird, I actually think LTK is the better film in terms of excitement and story. I found the plot of that film a lot more focused and gripping if that makes sense (Davi in that scene makes for a far more dangerous compelling adversary than all of the baddies in TLD). However, I agree Daylights is the more "Bondian" of the two :-S

timmer

Maryam D'Abo give me nightmares. That's all I have to say. ;-)

BAIN123

NicNac said:
While @BAIN123 agrees with @St_George, I am split down the middle.

Caroline Bliss is simply awful. I mean totally terrible. Caught between Lois Maxwell's sassy Penny and Samantha Bond's knowing and witty take on the part, Bliss plays her like a love-struck teenager. Yuk.

;-)

Finally, someone who speaks the truth ;)

St_George

Yup, from a 'quality' point of view, it's perfectly reasonable to say Daylights is the '80s' best Bond film, Nackers, I agree. Although for me they're definitely more fun, both OP and The 'Kill don't really qualify (OP is simply too uneven and AVTAK too silly). But FYEO is Daylights' big competitor here - indeed, so much so methinks the former may just pip the latter in the quality stakes. They're certainly Glen's two most focused and intellectual efforts; Daylights perhaps the more of the two and FYEO is arguably rather uneven. However, just because it entertains me more, in the end, of the two I'd probably plump for FYEO as the decade's best.

Oh, I completely missed out LTK in that ruminating there, didn't I? Oh well. ;)

And, yup, well mentioned about TLD's plot, @BAIN123. It goes for the taut Cold War thriller narrative of a FRWL or FYEO, but the plot is just unnecessarily convaluted by the time they're in the desert - and eventually you discover it all comes down to arms-dealing and diamond smuggling, which I've always found (probably no thanks to the very underwhelming villains) more than a little anti-climactic. Thank goodness for Kamran Shah in the last third of the movie - a fine character. If in a parallel universe Dalts made another three Bond films, you can bet you bottom dollar Shah was brought back for two of 'em.

However, you're also absolutely right, matey, in that TLD possesses a fine Barry score (the tinkly piano version of If There Was A Man underscores Bond and Kara's moments beautifully) and, fond as I am for a-ha, its title song ain't bad either. Even if The Barrymeister couldn't stand working with the Norwegian popsters, of course...

DaltonCraig007

The last great outing, dare I say masterpiece, of the Bond franchise. Yes, LTK is also very good, but TLD is truly the first signs of the downward spiral of the franchise, still continuing to this day. Dalton is very good. The plot is fantastic, Barry's score is great, the locations, the romance with D'Abo, very memorable secondary characters. Great tension in the film. This film ranks near the end of my top 10, but it is a very deserving member of my top 10.

Luds

jaguar007 said:

Luds said:

I agree fully. TLD imo is the last masterpiece in the franchise.

For years I felt the same, that it was the last masterpiece of the series, until CR that is.

CR ranks fairly highly for me, but no masterpiece. It's very good, easily in the top 10, as high as 6 or 7 but just out of masterpiece reach.

BAIN123 said:
I prefer the sassy, independent girl in a Bond film myself. Give me Pussy Galore, Natalya or Vesper anyday.

Pussy no doubt, Vesper maybe, but man-voice, out of the question. She's hot, no doubt, but as soon as she opens her mouth, I cringe.

BAIN123

Man voice? Lol. I've never had a problem with her.

I suppose I just prefer Natalya as she isn't quite so wet and naive.

Moonraker

I prefer a "breezier" Bond, like we got from Connery, Moore, and Brosnan. Someone described Dalton as being "too theatrical" and I agree. Sometimes he plays the role as if he is playing it on a stage. There has to be a nonchalance to the role of Bond, and Dalton never grasps that aspect to the character.

It is easy to know when you are watching the best parts of the film. Just look for Timothy Dalton wearing a tan jacket. He's wearing that jacket in the Pushkin interrogation (perhaps Dalton's finest moment as Bond), the assassination of Pushkin (Bond turning and firing a bullet into the spotlight is one of the most "Bondian" moments in the entire series), the chase through Tangiers, and meeting with Leiter.

Secondly, you know when you are watching some of the best parts of the film when you see the Necros character. One of the better henchman in the series.

I see some criticism of John Glen. I never understood why he gets so much grief. I think he did some excellent work in this film in particular.

A script that meanders in certain parts and a Brad Whitaker character that is useless serve to hurt the film significantly. Yet, the good out weighs the bad.

6/10

Luds

BAIN123 said:
Man voice? Lol. I've never had a problem with her.

I suppose I just prefer Natalya as she isn't quite so wet and naive.

I do like Natalya to an extent, but GE was the unfortunate start of the female Bond equivalent 90s trend where every girl was either an agent, or could magically not soil their pants and handle guns and extreme situations like a 40 year old army vet. Natalya, Wai Lin, Christmas Jones, Jinx, Camille... That bs has to stop.

davidbell373

Went to the cinema two days running to see this rate it a very close second to OHMSS, why do all the best Bond films have snow???

jaguar007

Luds said:
GE was the unfortunate start of the female Bond equivalent 90s trend where every girl was either an agent, or could magically not soil their pants and handle guns and extreme situations like a 40 year old army vet. Natalya, Wai Lin, Christmas Jones, Jinx, Camille... That bs has to stop.

Pussy Galore, Anya Amasova, Holly Goodhead, Melina Havalock, Octopussy, Pam Bouvier

BAIN123

As far as I can remember Christmas Jones never handled a gun :p

Shoreline

Luds said:

BAIN123 said:
Man voice? Lol. I've never had a problem with her.

I suppose I just prefer Natalya as she isn't quite so wet and naive.

I do like Natalya to an extent, but GE was the unfortunate start of the female Bond equivalent 90s trend where every girl was either an agent, or could magically not soil their pants and handle guns and extreme situations like a 40 year old army vet. Natalya, Wai Lin, Christmas Jones, Jinx, Camille... That bs has to stop.

I wouldn`t say it was bs....infact, I would say they were perfectly in line with the great Bond girls since FRWL !!

BAIN123

Shoreline said:

Luds said:

BAIN123 said:
Man voice? Lol. I've never had a problem with her.

I suppose I just prefer Natalya as she isn't quite so wet and naive.

I do like Natalya to an extent, but GE was the unfortunate start of the female Bond equivalent 90s trend where every girl was either an agent, or could magically not soil their pants and handle guns and extreme situations like a 40 year old army vet. Natalya, Wai Lin, Christmas Jones, Jinx, Camille... That bs has to stop.

I wouldn`t say it was bs....infact, I would say they were perfectly in line with the great Bond girls since FRWL !!

Natalya certainly but not the others

Shoreline

People have their favourites, but I really don`t think the characterisation of Bond girls changed at the start of `90`s.......
There have been many girls before who could handle weapons, and evere since Pussy Galore walked on set they have often been spoken of as Bonds equal. It really is nothing new. Like I said, we all have our favourites. :X

Moonraker

jaguar007 said:

Luds said:
GE was the unfortunate start of the female Bond equivalent 90s trend where every girl was either an agent, or could magically not soil their pants and handle guns and extreme situations like a 40 year old army vet. Natalya, Wai Lin, Christmas Jones, Jinx, Camille... That bs has to stop.

Pussy Galore, Anya Amasova, Holly Goodhead, Melina Havalock, Octopussy, Pam Bouvier

...Stacy Sutton :-S

Luds

jaguar007 said:

Luds said:
GE was the unfortunate start of the female Bond equivalent 90s trend where every girl was either an agent, or could magically not soil their pants and handle guns and extreme situations like a 40 year old army vet. Natalya, Wai Lin, Christmas Jones, Jinx, Camille... That bs has to stop.

Pussy Galore, Anya Amasova, Holly Goodhead, Melina Havalock, Octopussy, Pam Bouvier

These are 6 names from the 60s all the way to the 80s...
The PC police rule we have now is that merely every Bond girl is a Bond equal.

Benny

Luds said:

jaguar007 said:

Luds said:
GE was the unfortunate start of the female Bond equivalent 90s trend where every girl was either an agent, or could magically not soil their pants and handle guns and extreme situations like a 40 year old army vet. Natalya, Wai Lin, Christmas Jones, Jinx, Camille... That bs has to stop.

Pussy Galore, Anya Amasova, Holly Goodhead, Melina Havalock, Octopussy, Pam Bouvier

These are 6 names from the 60s all the way to the 80s...
The PC police rule we have now is that merely every Bond girl is a Bond equal.

Give me a Honey, Tania, Domino, Tracy , Melina, Octopussy or a Kara over any of those mentioned.
Enough of the 'equal to Bond' or a fellow agent.
I'll post my thoughts on TLD later.

MajorDSmythe

Ah, The Living Daylights, th efilm which has a comfortable seat at the top of my Bond ranking. I'mm not saying it's 100% perfect, as I believe Licence To Kill has the better villain(s), and I prefer Daltons performance in licence To Kill too. Every other aspect of The Living Daylights does get a 10/10 from me. I see people write things like Glen is the meat and potatoes of Bond directors. What does that even mean? He must have done something right, as he turned in one of the series classiest of spy thrillers, matching From Russia With Love in both the class and spy thriller stakes. Going back to what I said about Dalton's performance, still, in what was his first Bond film, he puts in a solid and surprisingly confidant performance. In interviews, Dalton couldn't get across enough he he read all of Flemings work, too see how he envisioned Bond. I believe (and people are going to disagree with me now) he got Flemings Bond. Had he got his 3rd film (his Goldfinger / The Spy Who Loved Me / The World Is Not Enough) I do believe that the public would have warmed to him... without the andriod fights. I can't ever see that making it through the the finished film.

My only regrets are that I wasn't old enough to see TLD in the cinema (turning 2 in 1987 did kinda cause a problem there) and that Dalton wasn't able to carry on into the 1990's. We could have had some cracking films. Casino Royale & Tomorrow Never Dies (Daltonised, of course) to name two, not to mention the other 3 Bond films Dalton could have squeezed in between 1991 and 1999.

BAIN123

I don't really have a big problem with Glenn. He directed some solid, entertaining entries to the series. I suppose one could accuse his films of being a bit...plain however. They don't quite have the vibrancy or colour that the early Terence Young flicks had.

PrinceKamalKhan

Luds said:

jaguar007 said:

Luds said:
GE was the unfortunate start of the female Bond equivalent 90s trend where every girl was either an agent, or could magically not soil their pants and handle guns and extreme situations like a 40 year old army vet. Natalya, Wai Lin, Christmas Jones, Jinx, Camille... That bs has to stop.

Pussy Galore, Anya Amasova, Holly Goodhead, Melina Havalock, Octopussy, Pam Bouvier

These are 6 names from the 60s all the way to the 80s...
The PC police rule we have now is that merely every Bond girl is a Bond equal.

Indeed. And as you aptly put in your TND review, with a "Bond equal" appearing alongside Bond in every 007 film, it tends to detract from Bond's uniqueness as a character in the films. In addition, the way Babs had had the Bond character retailored to her image is part of the problem as well although we did get a brief respite of sorts from that in CR.

Benny said:

Give me a Honey, Tania, Domino, Tracy , Melina, Octopussy or a Kara over any of those mentioned.
Enough of the 'equal to Bond' or a fellow agent.

Agreed. Give me a woman trapped under the villain's power that Bond has to rescue and turn to his side(Tatiana, Domino, Tiffany, Solitaire, etc.).

MajorDSmythe said:
Ah, The Living Daylights, th efilm which has a comfortable seat at the top of my Bond ranking. I'mm not saying it's 100% perfect, as I believe Licence To Kill has the better villain(s), and I prefer Daltons performance in licence To Kill too. Every other aspect of The Living Daylights does get a 10/10 from me. I see people write things like Glen is the meat and potatoes of Bond directors. What does that even mean? He must have done something right, as he turned in one of the series classiest of spy thrillers, matching From Russia With Love in both the class and spy thriller stakes. Going back to what I said about Dalton's performance, still, in what was his first Bond film, he puts in a solid and surprisingly confidant performance. In interviews, Dalton couldn't get across enough he he read all of Flemings work, too see how he envisioned Bond. I believe (and people are going to disagree with me now) he got Flemings Bond. Had he got his 3rd film (his Goldfinger / The Spy Who Loved Me / The World Is Not Enough) I do believe that the public would have warmed to him... without the andriod fights. I can't ever see that making it through the the finished film.

My only regrets are that I wasn't old enough to see TLD in the cinema (turning 2 in 1987 did kinda cause a problem there) and that Dalton wasn't able to carry on into the 1990's. We could have had some cracking films. Casino Royale & Tomorrow Never Dies (Daltonised, of course) to name two, not to mention the other 3 Bond films Dalton could have squeezed in between 1991 and 1999.

Good work, Major B-) . I'll admit I was old to enough to see TLD at the cinema in widescreen and it was quite an experience. It's been my favorite later period(1987-present) Bond film ever since. It was 19 long years before another similar experience with CR.

MajorDSmythe

PKK, i'm envious. I'd even settle for one of the local cinema's showing them. Alas, that doesn't happen, at all.

jaguar007

PrinceKamalKhan said:
. I'll admit I was old to enough to see TLD at the cinema in widescreen and it was quite an experience. It's been my favorite later period(1987-present) Bond film ever since. It was 19 long years before another similar experience with CR.

Agreed. Prior to CR, TLD was the last Bond movie I had walked out of feeling satisfied. While I enjoyed LTK and the Brosnan films, they all left me underwhelmed (as did QoS).

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