The Score of Skyfall

Shark

SirHenryLeeChaChing said:
The title song is the only thing Bondian about the rancid GE soundtrack save for the odd JB theme cue, and go figure, Serra didn't write it.

For crying out loud, do you watch GOLDENEYE with cotton wool buds in your ears?

SirHenryLeeChaChing said:
If Serra was so much better than Arnold, then why didn't Barry recommend him when he could have done so?

Uh, because of the hysterical fan response to Serra's score. EON wanted to keep them happy, so they had to find a new composer. Thanks partly to Barry's suggestion, they went with with the trendy and safe choice of David Arnold, who'd just released Shaken & Stirred, and had scored STARGATE and INDEPENDENCE DAY.

SirHenryLeeChaChing said:
Great opinion Aubergine. Arnold cares and respects Barry's legacy and Bond sound and makes sure Bond fans have a musical reference past just the JB theme

Respecting and understanding are two very different things. We all love Bond movies here, but how any of us could direct one? QED.

haserot

Shark said:

SirHenryLeeChaChing said:
The title song is the only thing Bondian about the rancid GE soundtrack save for the odd JB theme cue, and go figure, Serra didn't write it.

For crying out loud, do you watch GOLDENEYE with cotton wool buds in your ears?

SirHenryLeeChaChing said:
If Serra was so much better than Arnold, then why didn't Barry recommend him when he could have done so?

Uh, because of the hysterical fan response to Serra's score. EON wanted to keep them happy, so they had to find a new composer. Thanks partly to Barry's suggestion, they went with with the trendy and safe choice of David Arnold, who'd just released Shaken & Stirred, and had scored STARGATE and INDEPENDENCE DAY.

SirHenryLeeChaChing said:
Great opinion Aubergine. Arnold cares and respects Barry's legacy and Bond sound and makes sure Bond fans have a musical reference past just the JB theme

Respecting and understanding are two very different things. We all love Bond movies here, but how any of us could direct one? QED.

with all due respect - 3 of those songs, are almost exactly identical - it's just reprises of the Severnya Suite - nothing really different... Whispering Statues has some good stuff - and some bad IMO.. the obvious synth parts date this piece (and others on the soundtrack).. and, again, just my opinion here - I don't rather like the piano bit during the last half.

haserot

nick_007 said:
I think DAD is one of his better ones actually. It matches the film perfectly.

DAD has some good stuff, like "The Hovercraft Chase" and "Welcome To Cuba".. but there are portions of this score that borrow melodies from The World Is Not Enough... after relistening to Arnold's scores recently - i have found a new respect for a couple of the tracks on DAD, but still find this his laziest effort IMO...

..even though he gets hate on his score to TND - because of the overuse of the Bond theme, I can write that off to beginners overcompensation..

Shark

haserot said:

with all due respect - 3 of those songs, are almost exactly identical - it's just reprises of the Severnya Suite - nothing really different...

Right, and that doesn't that apply to to Barry's score, arguably even more so? Theme and variations.

Re the synth voices. I love that. "Dating" is good in my book. Nothing wrong with a score from 1995 sounding just like a score from 1995.

haserot

Shark said:

haserot said:

with all due respect - 3 of those songs, are almost exactly identical - it's just reprises of the Severnya Suite - nothing really different...

Right, and that doesn't that apply to to Barry's score, arguably even more so? Theme and variations.

Re the synth voices. I love that. "Dating" is good in my book. Nothing wrong with a score from 1995 sounding just like a score from 1995.

I never said Barry didn't do the same... he often found a specific melody and reused it throughout the course of the film......... never said it was a bad thing - with a lot of Barry's scores, you could ultimately condense 3 or 4 different tracks into 1.. thats just how he operated... Serra did the same with Goldeneye.... but when he wasn't using that theme, his music was just too "out there" for Bond IMO... he's a talented composer, but I just didn't feel like he captured the right moments with his score...

Dating in terms of score can be a tricky roll of the dice... sometimes, it works - but often times, it doesn't... imagine if Lucas has made the score for Star Wars disco heavy beats like the studio pressured him to do, instead classical style - would it hold up as well?... my guess would be no - because doing something like that is meeting the demands of a fad.

JBFan626

After giving this topic some thought, I'm starting to come around and see where @DaltonCraig007 is coming from. I think what's lacking in David Arnold and what was so characteristic of John Barry was a sense of color, depth and 3-dimensionality to his work. There was real art in his scores. But most importantly, his scores were truly memorable. They practically were hooks. Take the melody line in Kidd and Wint, or the main theme from YOLT, TB or GF. Part of the enjoyment of watching a Bond film from the Barry era was all those memorable standout lines that perfectly matched the mood. David Arnold does not give us any of these moments, but rather average background music. He's essentially lacks any personality in his Bond scores. But I do think he does a good enough workman's job to at least convey the mood in the scenes.

Also after listening to Serra's work, I do think he had what David Arnold lacked, a stamp of his own musical personality in his work. It is clear that Serra has a better hand in creating broader, sweeping moments that DA. Furthermore, I think I have to retract my Beatles analogy. For as talented and culturally impacting Lennon/McCartney were, none of those records would have had the magic without the graceful touch of George Martin. I doubt very highly that, despite writing the theme, McCartney could have scored LALD on his own. So I do honor and respect composers that have thorough formal musical training under their belt. In a rock n roll/popular music world, it's less important, but in the film score composer world, it seems essential. I do respect what David Arnold has done for his Bond contributions: he's brought a modern flaire, while alluding to the history of Barry. But to me he comes across more of a sampler/producer. He's not cut from the same cloth as Barry or Serra or Conti, so that I don't think at this point he possesses the tools and musical vocabulary to create a score of their calibre.

Zekidk

JBFan626 said:
Part of the enjoyment of watching a Bond film from the Barry era was all those memorable standout lines that perfectly matched the mood. David Arnold does not give us any of these moments

"Us"?`

Speak for yourself! Personally I have found several of those "moments" in Arnolds work:

(from 4:00-5.00)

(from 3:40-4.30)

(from 6:03):

(from 6:06):

JBFan626

Apologies mate if I seemed to suggest a collective consensus. That was not my intention. If David Arnold's work does it for you, hey that's great. It is ultimately subjective. I'm just giving reasons why I personally don't think DA matches up on a musical level to his predecessors. Don't get me wrong, David Arnold does a fine enough job. But for me personally, none of those musical pieces above leave a lasting impression. They work well for the film and do give a nod to Barry with the heavy use of brass. But I think DA doesn't makes a strong enough mark of his own to stand out. But does he work for the films? Yes. Is he keeping true to the 'sound' Barry established? More or less yes. I'm not arguing that. But when I hear John Barry scores or Conti or Serra, I can hear their unique particular sound on the film. With DA not so much. This begs another question though, is David Arnold more suited to scoring a Bond film than say, Serra, by achieving a sound closer to tradition, if not necessarily leaving his stamp on it? Afterall, we're really going to see a Bond film, not a composers visual-audio collage. I would say yes. David Arnold is the right man for the job, which is why at the end of the day I still respect his contributions.

But I still wouldn't mind someone else stepping in...

haserot

JBFan626 said:
Part of the enjoyment of watching a Bond film from the Barry era was all those memorable standout lines that perfectly matched the mood. David Arnold does not give us any of these moments

I also have to disagree with you on this one.. IMO, Arnold does have a knack for creating the perfect arrangement for the right scenes - clearly as shown above in the examples of "Paris & Bond", "Vesper", and even "Camille's Story" from the QOS soundtrack...

what separates Arnold, is the fact that he has a lot of filler arrangements, that aren't that memorable at all - and the fact that he can be terribly inconsistent.... but when he wants to create sweeping melodies, he has shown that he can do it... I like and prefer the vast majority of Barry's work over Arnold's - but I am not going to sh** on Arnold because of it... Arnold is a fine composer, and never once, while watching a Bond film he composed, did he arrange something so bad, that it took me out of the moment... if he is up to it - I hope he does the next 10 films............. meaning, that I hope he leaves the franchise with dignity, and on his terms.

Shark

Zekidk said:

JBFan626 said:
Part of the enjoyment of watching a Bond film from the Barry era was all those memorable standout lines that perfectly matched the mood. David Arnold does not give us any of these moments

"Us"?`

Speak for yourself! Personally I have found several of those "moments" in Arnolds work:

(from 4:00-5.00)

(from 3:40-4.30)

(from 6:03):

(from 6:06):

Is this a joke? That's Stepford Barry. The same MOONRAKER/OUT OF AFRICA chord progressions and voicing, yet completely devoid of any personality.

hasterot said:
I hope he leaves the franchise with dignity, and on his terms.

No one ever leaves on their own terms.

Shark

Zekidk said:

I really don't care if Serra has a higher or better education than Arnold. Talent is talent and I do prefer this:

Over this:

Why? Because I think that's how a Bondmovie should sound!

Like a Lifetime channel drama or a chick flick?

haserot

@Shark

like.. Sean, George, Roger, Barry, Campbell - they were all unjustly ousted right?

throw Pierce in that same category too... he fulfilled his obligations and contract.. and rumors were circling that he was going to get the axe, he came out and publicly said he was done with the role.. which gave EON the greenlight for a reboot with CR..... something that Cubby had wanted to do since the 80s with Dalton.

Zekidk

JBFan626 said:
Is he keeping true to the 'sound' Barry established? More or less yes. I'm not arguing that. But when I hear John Barry scores or Conti or Serra, I can hear their unique particular sound on the film.

But unlike others obvisualy I just don't want a new and "unique" sound. I want the composer of the Bond-movies to respect and being true to the original Bondsound that I have grown up with, and that I love. I don't want another Conti or Serra who wants to try something "different", like I didn't want Foster and the editor to edit QoS in a completely different way like all the other Bond-movies. And I would hate it if a Bondmovie was stripped af all action, and turned into a drama, just for the sake of being "unique."

It's no secret that Arnold is a great admirer of Barry (most people get their inspiration from somewhere). But arguing that Arnold doesn't know how to put his "stamp" on movies, or that he has a hard time "being unique", when he has won several awards for his work? I'm not buying that argument! Arnolds greatest strength, IMO, is his talent when creating good melodies. Melodies that from his very beginning back in 1993 to me sounded very Bondish. When I heard this back in 1993 for the movie "Young Amercans", I, like John Barry himself, thought that he would be a perfect composer for the Bond-movies:

I understand that much of the criticism regarding/hate towards Arnold is because his work sound too much like John Barry. Hey! - that's exactly why I want him to do the score for Bond 23,24,25 and soforth!

haserot

at this point Zekidk, it's not worth getting into a holy war over... a lot people love to hate on the guy - for really no other scientific reason beyond their own personal taste....... which is fine, i guess.... i do it too with other stuff on this board

GeorgeLazenby

There is a perfectly good reason-- Arnold's music is soulless crap compared to Barry's. If you could boil all the potency of Arnold's entire catalogue down into one track it would still not be as affecting as even Barry's sup-par work. Eon desperately needs to replace David Arnold and they will never succeed in making a truly great Bond film until they do.

Zekidk

GeorgeLazenby said:
Arnold's music is soulless crap

That's your opinion! The music industry which has given him several awards disagree!

GeorgeLazenby said:
Eon desperately needs to replace David Arnold and they will never succeed in making a truly great Bond film until they do.

That's your opinion. The fact is, that all Bondmovies after GE, were box-office hits!

Here's another opinion: George Lazenby was the worst actor ever to star in a Bond-movie.

DaltonCraig007

Zekidk said:
That's your opinion! The music industry which has given him several awards disagree!

Again, he got awards for scores where the large part of the work wasn't done by him.

And, what do awards mean ? Hitchcock has no Oscars, so surely you must think he is a hack ?

Zekidk said:
The fact is, that all Bondmovies after GE, were box-office hits!

GE is the biggest box office hit Brosnan had.

Zekidk

DaltonCraig007 said:

Zekidk said:
That's your opinion! The music industry which has given him several awards disagree!

Again, he got awards for scores where the large part of the work wasn't done by him.

And, what do awards mean ? Hitchcock has no Oscars, so surely you must think he is a hack ?

No, I'm not saying that. But surely the work of Arnold isn't "crap." I have the deepest respect for people in the industry, of who all think highly of Arnold. Even Barry did!
But I guess John Barry really did have no idea what he was talking about when recommending Arnold?

DaltonCraig007 said:
GE is the biggest box office hit Brosnan had.

You are wrong!

(from http://boxofficemojo.com)

Goldeneye, worldwide gross: $352,194,034
Die Another Day, worldwide gross: $431,971,116

DaltonCraig007

Barry said Bond films were 'treading water' in 2004/2005... And he also bashed the music.

Zekidk

No he didn't. You are a liar!

DaltonCraig007

Don't be rude.

Goldeneye sold more tickets than TND, TWINE and DAD. So check the facts first, sir.

http://www.mi6-hq.com/news/index.php?itemid=2113
Read how he bashes modern composers and doesn't put Arnold in the 'good category'.

Zekidk

DaltonCraig007 said:

Goldeneye sold more tickets than TND, TWINE and DAD. So check the facts first, sir.

Guess IMDB got it wrong then:

Admissions (USA):

GE, 24,450,000
TND, 26,700,000
...
So your point is, that TND, DAD, TWINE sold less tickets because of Arnold? Are you serious?

DaltonCraig007 said:

Read how he bashes modern composers and doesn't put Arnold in the 'good category'.

And exactly WHERE does he mention Arnold? And exactly WHERE does he "bash" Arnolds Bondmusic? In 2003 he actually praised the DAD-soundtrack - especially the track "Welcome to Cuba."

DaltonCraig007

Zekidk said:
Guess IMDB got it wrong then:

Admissions (USA):

GE, 24,450,000
TND, 26,700,000

Why do you just put the USA figures and not the world-wide figure ?

Zekidk said:
So your point is, that TND, DAD, TWINE sold less tickets because of Arnold? Are you serious?

You have a vivid imagination - I never said that.

Zekidk said:
And exactly WHERE does he mention Arnold? And exactly WHERE does he "bash" Arnolds Bondmusic? In 2003 he actually praised the DAD-soundtrack - especially the track "Welcome to Cuba."

He bashes modern composers, which Arnold is part of... But he didn't have kind words for Arnold, so it's easy to see that Barry puts Arnold in the same 'treading water' category of modern composers, since he didn't put Arnold apart from the people he bashes. If he did think Arnold was good, he'd have defended him, but he didn't, and he put him in the bad modern composers group.

Zekidk

So because Barry didn't mention Arnold amongst "the good guys" ìn the article, it must mean that Arnold is amongst the "bad guys" (bad composers")?

So if one praises Daniel Craig for his Bond-delivery without mentioning the other Bond-actors, it must mean that all the others - from Connery to Brosnan - suck, right?

That's kind of a lame argument, IMO! Kind of like "you're either with us or with the terrorits."

DaltonCraig007

So he praised DAD's soundtrack, and then has no kind words for Arnold when he bashes his own category of composers a couple of years later ?

And you still seem to deny the reality that Arnold is not responsible for a large portion of the work on his soundtracks. He is one of the composers that relies the most on his orchestrator. He has a very limited orchestra range, and instead of learning about new instruments, he also have an over-reliance on sound mixing, another proof of his laziness and/or lack of talent. He has close to no musical complexity. The only soundtrack of his entire career where he started to show basic musical knowledge was QOS... And he was near 50 when he scored that. So either Arnold is very slow learning, or he is very, very lazy.

Shark

Zekidk said:

GeorgeLazenby said:
Arnold's music is soulless crap

That's your opinion! The music industry which has given him several awards disagree!

Awards mean f all.

You're right though about Arnold. His music isn't crap, it's just mediocre, with very occasional moments of brilliance.

Zekidk

DaltonCraig007

Look, I understand that you don't like Arnold. I respect your distaste in him. Truly I do. Some people also prefer vanilla-shake over strawberry-shake.

But you have no case against him. None what so ever! And now you are speculating and using an article in order to support your own conclusions - that Barry turned against him, because "if he's not defending him, he must be attacking him", right?

Barry speaks highly of only three composers in the article - Miklos Rozsa, Franz Waxman and Bernard Herrmann. I guess you will not be happy unless one of the three replaces Arnold? Or what's your point?

Yes... Barry does not mention Arnold in the same positive terms. Nor does he mention Hanz Zimmer, James Horner, John Williams etc.

But that does not mean that John Barry are "bashing" these fine composers now, does it?

You can Arnold what you want ("lazy", "lacking in talent" and so forth). It just doesn't make your argument any stronger. On the contrary!

DaltonCraig007

Zekidk said:

But you have no case against him. None what so ever!

You can Arnold what you want ("lazy", "lacking in talent" and so forth). It just doesn't make your argument any stronger. On the contrary!

Wrong. As I will explain to you one last time : Arnold is not responsible for a large part of his soundtracks, due to being one of the composers that relies the most on his orchestrator. He didn't show any musical complexity until QOS, and even then he only showed some basic musical elements that anyone would have learned in music class, not after 10+ years of composing. Arnold has a very limited orchestral range, and he prefers the easy way out by relying on sound mixing instead of learning about new instruments.

Serra composes, orchestrates and conducs his own work, meaning he does much more work on his soundtrack than Arnold. I can't understand how much you refuse to see the facts.

You are living in denial and refuse to face reality.

I am not saying you can't like/love Arnold, but saying he is a good/great composer just isn't true. He is a mediocre composer at best, with, as Shark said, very occasional moments of brilliance.

DarthDimi

Zekidk said:
You are a liar!

@Zekidk Please refrain from accusing other members of being a liar. Even if by any chance you can prove said member wrong, there's no reason to bring up such immature expressions.

SaintMark

Hanz Zimmer, James Horner, John Williams etc.
I would welcome any of those over DA, since they are composers and not posers.

To make a real classic great 007 movie with Bond 23 they need a different composer, that will create something new and exciting instead of a musical actionwallpaper.

Mr DA hasn't created anything new for the 007 movies, no real sound of is own but John Barry greatest hits on drum 'n Beat. Which is not composing bute remixing great music.

In order to evolve the movieseries it is time for the music to step up again. And I do not see DA in that position. He has shown little progress over the last movies imho. His soundtracks are very poor standalone efforts. When I listen to the Bondsound it mostly involves the pre GE soundtracks, because they are exciting. Not just pumped up music.

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