The Score of Skyfall

DaltonCraig007

I agree @nick_007 - Back Seat Driver is one of Arnold's best.

Zekidk

DaltonCraig007 said:
Eric Serra is the best non-Barry composer

That's your opinion.

I don't like Serra and Conti. Hated the GE soundtrack. Didn't sound bondish at all! FYEO just sound dated.

DaltonCraig007

Zekidk said:

DaltonCraig007 said:
Eric Serra is the best non-Barry composer

That's your opinion.

Nope. Serra is widely regarded as a great composer, as one of the most talented and versatile composer in the business today. You may not like him, but you just can't deny he is a very good composer. Don't just judge him on GE, but on his other works, which are sublime, and ressemble very closely the complexity of the work of Barry. And GE is indeed the one of the most musically complex score in the franchise alongside Barry's. GE's score is musically greater than Arnold's 5 soundtracks, something that can't be disputed. Whether you like his GE music or not is up to personal taste.

SaintMark

Zekidk said:

I think he and Conti are the worst. Hated the GE soundtrack. Didn't sound bondish at all! FYEO just sound dated.

Considering that the FYEO movie is 30 years old and whenever I hear music from it I know what movie it is from, I would say it is not only a very good soundtrack but also one that gives the movie an identity.

If you were to give me a random piece of music by DA where he does his thing I think I am hardpressed to even name what movie it is for. DA has not shown anything original in any of his outings.

I would consider most one-off composers of the 007 franchise all easly superiour to the effort we had lately.

Zekidk

DaltonCraig007 said:

Zekidk said:

DaltonCraig007 said:
Eric Serra is the best non-Barry composer

That's your opinion.

Nope. Serra is widely regarded as a great composer, as one of the most talented and versatile composer in the business today. You may not like him, but you just can't deny he is a very good composer.

Serra hasn't scored anything remarkable since Joan of Arc in 1999.

Arnold is also widely regarded as a great composer, as one of the most talented and versatile composer in the business today. That's probably why he has won several awards:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0003417/awards

You may not like him, but you just can't deny he is a very good composer.

And again... stuff like this doesn't sound very "bondish" to me:

DaltonCraig007

What a load of nonsense. Arnold has never attended a music school or had any classical training. And I suggest you listen to Serra's 'Adele Blanc-Sec', which is very close to the magic of Barry.

I can't believe how anyone would seriously say Arnold is widely regarded as a great composer, because he isn't. Zekidk you are making a fool of yourself with such statement, sorry. Arnold is a 2nd class, even 3rd class rate composer, and will forever remain so because he simply doesn't have the musical knowledge of musical ability. The ONLY score where Arnold showed anything ressembling musical knowledge is QOS, and he was close to 50 when he scored that film. Which brings the question of how on earth can Arnold still be in business. And you have to know that Arnold only makes 50% of his scores, at best of times, which shows how weak a composer he is.

Zekidk

DaltonCraig007, please stop posting your opinion as facts! It just makes you sound arrogant and snobbish!

I like Arnold, don't like Serra, and there's nothing you can do about it, okay?

If you think MY opinion is "nonsense", then that's okay with me!

I guess the 11 BMI Awards Arnold received in your opinion is "nonsense" as well. Guess you know better because you are a "trained musician", LOL!

DaltonCraig007

And you don't seem to know that Arnold is one the composer that relies the most on his orchestrator. Arnold is responsible for 50% at best of his scores, so how can you say someone is 'good' when he relies on someone else for half the job, whilst Serra is responsible for MORE than 100% of his soundtrack like Barry ? Serra is a rare bread of composer, end of.

And I am not questionning your liking of Arnold and detestation of Serra. I am simply saying that it is a fact that Serra is a much more talented composer than Arnold. Now you are welcome to love Arnold and hate Serra, but it doesn't change the reality that Serra IS a better composer than Arnold.

Monsieur_Aubergine

So even Armolds GRAMMY award winning independence day score is rubbish then??
Seriously let's not talk about the man like he's a piece of untalented dirt. I have met personally the man in question and I can safely say he is switched on, has great vision and most importantly he cares about the legacy!

No will ever carbon copy Barry and so they shouldn't but the Bond Sound is in a league of it's own let's just hope that is respected regardless of whomever it may be with the baton.

JBFan626

Lest we forget that John Barry himself recommended David Arnold to Barbara Broccoli for the job.

It is what it is. I couldn't stand Conti's score, but enjoyed Hamlisch's. David Arnold has done a fine enough job engaging the "sound" of Barry into his work. To each his own.

Monsieur_Aubergine

Serra mainly uses keyboards, programmed percussion and a small studio string outfit. Arnold uses the full gamut eg. Bike shop fight from TND. Nicholas Dodd does indeed work closely with Arnold due to his past history with Barry, but when all is said and done Arnold is the composer end of.

As i say whoever is on the next one give me a decent gunbarrell opener and a bond theme heavy PTS suite and I will be happy. Bond will definitely be back if that at least happens. :-)

DaltonCraig007

Monsieur_Aubergine said:
So even Armolds GRAMMY award winning independence day score is rubbish then??

Again, Arnold is one the composer that relies the most on his orchestrator, which mean Arnold is responsible for half the job on his soundtracks at best. Yes Independence Day is a good score, but Arnold isn't responsible for a large part of it, since his orchestrator did a large part of the work. Serra is a composer, orchestrator and conductor, so factually that means he is very talented, much more than Arnold who doesn't know how to orchestrate (which is 50% of the work needed for a soundtrack).

JBFan626 said:
Lest we forget that John Barry himself recommended David Arnold to Barbara Broccoli for the job.

Which he later said the Bond music was 'treading water'.

DaltonCraig007

Monsieur_Aubergine said:
Serra mainly uses keyboards, programmed percussion and a small studio string outfit. Arnold uses the full gamut eg. Bike shop fight from TND. Nicholas Dodd does indeed work closely with Arnold due to his past history with Barry, but when all is said and done Arnold is the composer end of.

Again, Arnold uses a very restrained orchestra on Bond. Much smaller than Barry. Serra, outside of Bond, uses a much larger orchestra, very close to Barry. The sound variety on Arnold's soundtracks is due to sound mixing, not the orchestra. Serra and Barry don't cheat like Arnold, they use a large orchestra for a large variety of sound, not going the easy route with sound mixing. So again Arnold's ability is questionned, as he always uses the same limited number of instruments, but relying on sound mixing to diversify the sound. Serra uses a much wider orchestra, like Barry, which is a much more 'real' sounding music, as you know the large variations of sounds come from the large number of orchestra, not simple sound mixing.

Zekidk

DaltonCraig007

I really don't care about the proces. For me - it's the endresult that counts.

Arnold has got some fantastic scores on his record (Young Americans , Stargate, Independence Day, Godzilla and then the Bondmovies), has won a lot of musicawards, but I GET that you don't fancy him, for whatever reason. You prefer the avantgarde soundtrack of Eric Serra. Guess we just have a different perpective about Bondmusic, and that's perfectly fine with me. Some people also prefer Moore over Connery or think that Brosnan "IS the best Bond."

Zekidk

"Serra's score is often criticized by Bond fans, and is considered the farthest departure from a traditional Bond score and the most inappropriate in the series history. The producers later hired John Altman to provide the music for the tank chase in St. Petersburg"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Éric_Serra

DaltonCraig007

Zekidk said:
DaltonCraig007

I really don't care about the proces. For me - it's the endresult that counts.

So you don't care that Serra has a well defined musical knowledge, much like Barry, whilst Arnold has a very limited musical knowledge ? So it doesn't matter that one of these gentlemen is clearly not a very knowledgable composer, which relies much more on his orchestrator and sound mixing instead on doing the entire work himself and having a large orchestra, which sounds more 'real' ?

Zekidk

DaltonCraig007 said:

Zekidk said:
DaltonCraig007

I really don't care about the proces. For me - it's the endresult that counts.

So you don't care that Serra has a well defined musical knowledge, much like Barry, whilst Arnold has a very limited musical knowledge ?

"Very limited musical knowledge" ?

I think his many awards won speak for themselves!!!

For me - I like the Arnoldsound for the Bondmovies better than the much criticized Serrasound.

Get over it!

DaltonCraig007

Zekidk said:

"Very limited musical knowledge" ?

I think his many awards won speak for themselves!!!

For me - I like the Arnoldsound for the Bondmovies better than the much criticized Serrasound.

Get over it!

Again, 1) Arnold has an over-reliance on his orchestrator, which means Arnold is not reponsible for a large part of his scores. 2) Arnold has a very limited orchestra, uses always the same instruments, 3) relies more on sound mixing than a variation of instruments/wider orchestra. 4) He never attended a music school and isn't classicly trained.

Arnold won awards for scores where he only did a portion of the work. He has a very limited orchestral range, uses the same limited number of instruments, and instead of learning about new instruments, he goes the easy way out and relies on sound mixing.

If you can't see what all this means... I am sorry for you.

Monsieur_Aubergine

'Ice Chase' from DAD reliant on sound mixing? Never! :-))

I love the Welcome to Cuba track on that album..gorgeous.

Anyway I digress. I feel we should put our Arnold debacle to bed for now... Looking forward, if I were to cite one example of a score that I wish were emulated it would be Gibraltar Exercise from the expanded Living Daylights soundtrack. Just thinking of this makes me dribble!! (from the mouth) :-)

Zekidk

And Sean Connery never attended any "classical" actingschool, like Tim Dalton who joined the Royal Shakespeare Company. Still Connery is widely regarded as the best Bond!

If you can't see what I'm saying here... I am sorry for you.

DaltonCraig007

Monsieur_Aubergine said:
'Ice Chase' from DAD reliant on sound mixing? Never! :-))

Well the instruments are played backwards through a computer.

Zekidk said:
And Sean Connery never attended any "classical" actingschool, like Tim Dalton who joined the Royal Shakespeare Company. Still Connery is widely regarded as the best Bond!

If you can't see what I'm saying here... I am sorry for you.

I fail to see what is your point.

JBFan626

The Beatles didn't have 'classical training' or couldn't even read music. But I still like their music...Nor did Keith Richards, Ray Davies, etc...As Zekidk says, it's really about the end result.

Zekidk

DaltonCraig007

Your are trying to make a point that Serra is a better Bondcomposer than Arnold because Serra is "classicaly trained", right?

If that's a fact, then Timothy Dalton has to be the best actor playing James Bond! But is he the most popular? Do people prefer him in general over let's say Connery or Craig?

I really don't care if Serra has a higher or better education than Arnold. Talent is talent and I do prefer this:

Over this:

Why? Because I think that's how a Bondmovie should sound!

Serra might be superior to Arnoldin terms of technique. But IMO, Serra lacks the most important thing: finding and creating good memorable melodies.

haserot

I've personally never understood the boiling hatred that fans have towards Arnold and his score efforts - I can see where an annoyance might be warranted (like in the case for the soundtrack for TND or DAD) but the way some fans dismiss his work with such slathering hatred and venom baffles me... because in all seriousness, his scores are not awful.. are they average? yes, but they are not awful...

Not to knock on Barry - but I don't remember his Bond scores winning very many awards at all - he shared Golden Globe nominations for his work on A View To A Kill and From Russia With Love, and a Grammy nomination for Goldfinger - for original songs... but never once were his scores nominated.... again - i am not knocking the man, but they way some attack Arnold, make you believe that a dynasty of awards and nominations have been attributed to Barry over the years for his work on Bond - when it hasn't - actually, far from it.... to the rest of the world, Bond was just a footnote in an amazing award winning career....

But when you remove everything else, and focus just on Bond in comparing the two composers - that's still like comparing Ozzie Smith to Omar Vizquel (excuse the baseball analogy).. both were excellent Shortstops, but both played the game differently....... both Barry and Arnold are great composers - but they are different in the way they work.... Barry (especially towards the end of his Bond run) would recycle a lot of the same melodies and cues over and over throughout a score- something we don't here a lot with Arnold - especially when it comes to finding ways to integrate the melodies of the title themes into the score - something Barry did often as well, because he was usually heavily involved with the production of the title theme as well - something that Arnold has only gotten to do twice officially, the first time his theme was snubbed for Sheryl Crow..

A lot of people tend to also blame Arnold for overstaying his welcome in a film - meaning that "as a composer, you often times need to know when to be silent, because silence is just as effective as a masterful piece of music."... very true.... but don't think once the film is over and finished editing, that Arnold has free reign and can do whatever he wants musically - a lot of those calls are directorial calls - that they want a specific feel for a certain scene... that falls more on the director, than the composer - the composer's job is the fulfill the needs of his director...

But Arnold's scores do fall in that category of average to me - then again, very few film scores in general i can simply throw in my CD player, and listen to periodically... but with Arnold, he has a lot of filler tracks - where Barry really didn't.. his efforts were consolidated.. Arnold's work seems to stretch itself into areas that really don't need to be there... In the film itself, it works - but on a soundtrack, and bland filler... i use "Blunt Instrument" from Casino Royale for this example... the first half of the track, while it works during the film - just sounds "meh" and too subdued on the soundtrack itself... the second half the song is brilliant IMO - and has a great mesh of the some notes from the Bond theme and You Know My Name, before going into a melodic reprise of You Know My Name to finish out the rest of the track... it's moments like this, where Arnold is spot on IMO... it's just he has too much filler that often detract away from his really good stuff.

Monsieur_Aubergine

"but don't think once the film is over and finished editing, that Arnold has free reign and can do whatever he wants musically - a lot of those calls are directorial calls - that they want a specific feel for a certain scene... that falls more on the director, than the composer - the composer's job is the fulfill the needs of his director".

I tried to make that point in another thread a while back...it got shot down.

I completely agree with you haserot.

haserot

@Zekidk

Eric Serra did have some good stuff on that soundtrack as well... it wasn't all bad...

and..

... but even with those two tracks.. i find his work on Bond more hit and miss than Arnold... his score just didn't have a warmness to me - like i can find in Barry's, and even Arnold's.... his felt too industrial, and too cold.

SirHenryLeeChaChing

Zekidk said:

DaltonCraig007 said:
Eric Serra is the best non-Barry composer

That's your opinion.

I don't like Serra and Conti. Hated the GE soundtrack. Didn't sound bondish at all! FYEO just sound dated.

Zekidk, you and I are cut from the same cloth. Trained musicians who respect the feel a Bond movie should have. Serra did a horrible, wretched, appalling job in capturing the musical feel of a Bond movie and in this aspect Arnold is a far better composer. The title song is the only thing Bondian about the rancid GE soundtrack save for the odd JB theme cue, and go figure, Serra didn't write it. Serra's style might work for "La Femme Nikita" or a Bourne movie, but not for Bond. Serra showed no respect towards Barry or the Bond sound. If Serra was so much better than Arnold, then why didn't Barry recommend him when he could have done so? The answer is because Barry, and EON for that matter, knew Serra was wrong for the job. "The master" told EON that Arnold was the right guy. I believe Barry's opinion over anyone else's. Enough said about that.

As far as the FYEO soundtrack, I feel the title theme and it's use do indeed make parts of the film where the theme is used a bit memorable, but the disco overtones don't do anything to much distinguish it from say TSWLM, which is overall a better soundtrack. If I may borrow the word "pastiche" from DC for a moment, then FYEO is a Hamlisch pastiche. Conti's "Rocky" style mixed in with disco just doesn't work for a Bond movie. I love the movie, it's my favorite Moore film, but the soundtrack is my 2nd least favorite too. Even so, it's miles closer to respecting Barry.

Monsieur_Aubergine said:
So even Armolds GRAMMY award winning independence day score is rubbish then??
Seriously let's not talk about the man like he's a piece of untalented dirt. I have met personally the man in question and I can safely say he is switched on, has great vision and most importantly he cares about the legacy!

No will ever carbon copy Barry and so they shouldn't but the Bond Sound is in a league of it's own let's just hope that is respected regardless of whomever it may be with the baton.

Great opinion Aubergine. Arnold cares and respects Barry's legacy and Bond sound and makes sure Bond fans have a musical reference past just the JB theme. In my opinion, a composer of a Bond movie who doesn't respect the legacy will never be better than one who does.

echo

I like David Arnold, even though he is essentially a Barry "cover composer."

I prefer continuity in the Bond reboot series, including musically. Take QoS: I loved the reference to and photo of LeChiffre, hated the new MI6 building, loved the reprise of Vesper's Theme, hated the out-of-left-field location fonts, etc.

TopGearJB007

Serra's GE score was supposed to be cold war-ish sounding, which, I felt, he did very well. I love Goldeneye's soundtrack.

Oh how I love that song! :-bd

nick_007

I think DAD is one of his better ones actually. It matches the film perfectly.

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