Bond fandom and religion

thelordflasheart

This is one of those topics where people could get their backs up but I'm curious about it...

Back on alt.fan.james.bond there was a member who was a very conservative born-again Christian. I was quite surprised that he was such a huge Bond fan, and I asked - respectfully - how he reconciled his religion with the content of the Bond films and with Bond's behaviour. The pre-marital sex (in fact, trying to have as much as possible!), the violence, the quests for revenge...this would seem to me to be incompatible with the beliefs of certain religions.

So for those here who are religious, I'm genuinely curious - what are your thoughts on that? I realize that some churches have more liberal views than others (the church down my street proudly marries gay couples) but I'd rather hear from those who are more conservatively religious.

licensetoforum

I am Catholic, though not the most conservative of the bunch as I am fine with gay marriage, but Bond isn't really in our world. Even in the films where he is not being superman and is quite human, he is still in situations that are outlandish to think we would ever be in. It would be like getting offended at Wiley the Coyote because he wants to eat the Roadrunner.

TheWizardOfIce

thelordflasheart said:
the violence, the quests for revenge...this would seem to me to be incompatible with the beliefs of certain religions.

I dont know - it seems pretty much the raison d'être for some of the most popular contemporary religions to me. Even the the sex is pretty popular if you're a Catholic priest or an Islamic martyr.

SirHenryLeeChaChing

I find the monotheistic religions (Christianity, Islam, and to a lesser extent Judaism) to be full of hypocrisy and don't subscribe to any of them. The first two advocate open and loud professions of faith to any and all who would listen, and feel they have the particular right to subjugate everyone to their way of faith by any means necessary, including force and the dissolution of the wise separation of church and state. America would become a nightmare like we see in Iran an other Islamic countries if we allow the "religious right" to have their way, which they fail to understand is not the idyllic situation for those of us who are happy with our faiths and don't want to change. Maybe we think their way is wrong. I think everyone should have the right to a personal faith with malice and prejudice towards none.

Creasy47

@SirHenryLeeChaChing, well stated. I don't enjoy having fundamentalists force their views down my throat, but when the homosexual community or slight followers of other religions let their voices be heard, it's inappropriate and against God. I'm agnostic, and nobody (key word: nobody) knows for certain if there is a God or not. When we die, then we will find out.

SirHenryLeeChaChing

@Creasy- my point is that the voices of other religions should be heard, that is freedom of speech and freedom of religion. That is why church and state were separated, so that the word of a leader in control of both a kingdom and the church could not dictate. We can't afford the likes of murderers like King James or an Ayatollah in charge of the U.S, nor even a secular candidate who will impose the will of those whose views don't represent everyone despite their ignorant misconception that they should.

As an agnostic who isn't sure that "God" exists, how do you determine what is "against" unless you are listening to others preaching that? These same people would like to bring back the old times and burn people like me at the stake.

jackdagger

This has gotten way off topic...

To answer the original question: Bond is a work of fiction. Would I approve of a real lifestyle like that? Probably not. But Bond is escapism, and anyone that shuns the franchise because of its "sinful" nature probably can't tell fantasy from reality.

doubleoego

The Bond movies are just films, forms of entertainment that have no bearing on how I morally live my life. We live in a world run by the media and there's more than enough garbage shoved in our faces for anyone of any particular belief or lack of belief to take or hold the Bond movies or any other movie based purely on fiction in high regard or to a level that it affects one's life.

00Beast

Well, I am a very conservative Church of Christ Christian, who comes from a family of ministers (both grandfathers and my dad), so I pretty much fit the bill exactly on the opening post. In regards to the sexual scenes, I simply press the "next" button on the DVD remote and move on. Hey, that's what it's there for anyway. As for the violence, it's not an issue, I mean, there's plenty of violence in the Bible anyway, especially in books like Judges. It's never been an issue with my family. As to the revenge plots, yes, the Bible does say that "Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord", so I would not like to go and mimic that kind of behavior however tempting it might be if something along those lines were to happen, but as it is just a story and not actually real, it's something we can pass over. Aside from the sex scenes and language, which the latter isn't in excess thankfully, and if it is, I know where the mute button is, the Bond movies typically don't conflict with me.

thelordflasheart

Interesting responses, @00Beast, @doubleoego, and @jackdagger...I guess I find it odd that a very religious person, who would shun the type of lifestyle that Bond lives, would then want to watch a film that not only shows it but celebrates it.

A good friend of mine belonged to an extremely conservative born again Christian family and their entertainment choices were very limited. Anything that was considered to "celebrate" an immoral lifestyle, or that didn't show the consequences of it (hello, Hayes Production Code!) were not allowed. Of course the Bond films were considered wicked and sinful, and the mother was very upset that the films brainwashed young boys into thinking that violence and pre-marital sex were acceptable (interestingly, the family was pro-death penalty and pro-war). So I associate that type of thinking with staunch religious people; that's why I find it odd if those people watch films that glorify things that they think are wrong.

Of course, I've also met a lot of people who practice buffet-style religion - you pick what you want and then just ignore the rest (how they choose what they can ignore in the bible and what they must follow was always a mystery to me - their criteria seemed to be just "I want to be able to do that so it must be okay!"). An old co-worker of mine fit into that category and he was one of the biggest Bond fans I've ever met. He justified the films by saying "Well, he fights evil so they're okay to watch!".

TheWizardOfIce

jackdagger said:
probably can't tell fantasy from reality.

Doesn't that pretty much sum up people who believe in God anyway?

00Beast said:
In regards to the sexual scenes, I simply press the "next" button on the DVD remote and move on. Hey, that's what it's there for anyway.

So that's the mistake I've been making all these years - hitting next just as Bond gets into bed with a girl. If only I'd known the Bond films were packed with sex I wouldn't have had to waste so much time hunting down Evas jubblies in The Dreamers and such like.

thelordflasheart

TheWizardOfIce said:

00Beast said:
In regards to the sexual scenes, I simply press the "next" button on the DVD remote and move on. Hey, that's what it's there for anyway.

So that's the mistake I've been making all these years - hitting next just as Bond gets into bed with a girl. If only I'd known the Bond films were packed with sex I wouldn't have had to waste so much time hunting down Evas jubblies in The Dreamers and such like.

This is interesting to me - so you know that the character wants to have pre-marital sex, you know that he *engages* in pre-marital sex, but as long as you don't see it happening then it's okay? I would think the fact that you're watching a character who does that would be the problem, not that you just don't watch him do it.

Again, if you're taught that pre-marital sex is wrong (apologies if you're not) then why watch the films that not only include a lot of it but show it to be cool and fun? I do mean that as a respectful question, I understand that it's fiction and a wish fulfillment fantasy but doesn't it undermine what you're taught in church?

doubleoego

TheWizardOfIce said:

Doesn't that pretty much sum up people who believe in God anyway?

No, it does not.

jackdagger

TheWizardOfIce said:

jackdagger said:
probably can't tell fantasy from reality.

Doesn't that pretty much sum up people who believe in God anyway?

That was low and unnecessary.

doubleoego

thelordflasheart said:

TheWizardOfIce said:

00Beast said:
In regards to the sexual scenes, I simply press the "next" button on the DVD remote and move on. Hey, that's what it's there for anyway.

So that's the mistake I've been making all these years - hitting next just as Bond gets into bed with a girl. If only I'd known the Bond films were packed with sex I wouldn't have had to waste so much time hunting down Evas jubblies in The Dreamers and such like.

This is interesting to me - so you know that the character wants to have pre-marital sex, you know that he *engages* in pre-marital sex, but as long as you don't see it happening then it's okay? I would think the fact that you're watching a character who does that would be the problem, not that you just don't watch him do it.

Again, if you're taught that pre-marital sex is wrong (apologies if you're not) then why watch the films that not only include a lot of it but show it to be cool and fun? I do mean that as a respectful question, I understand that it's fiction and a wish fulfillment fantasy but doesn't it undermine what you're taught in church?

The thing is, what one understands to be right and wrong and then choosing to act on either of the 2 are different things.
James Bond isn't real but in this fictional entertainment where he's the protagonist, regardless of what he's doing and how he's doing it, doesn't automatically re-calibrate my own knowledge or understanding of what's right or wrong. Jame's Bond is a cool character and he has qualities that the nature of many people desire and admire. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging or watching it imo. The problem only starts if I decide to pick up a gun and start shooting people. At the end of the day it's what people choose to act on.....and James Bond? Have you read the bible?? The bible, particularly in the old testament has merciless and brutal acts going on in there and I'm just talking about the good guys. Watching James Bond is the least of anyone's problems.

St_George

I've been keeping my eye on this one since it opened because I knew it had the potential of delivering some, shall we say, 'over-healthy' debate.

Just to say, guys, let's try to avoid any sort of personal attacks that some may feel is just spiky and provocative, but others may well find offensive. Thanks.

And, to add to the debate myself, for me this pretty much sums it up...

jackdagger said:
Bond is escapism, and anyone that shuns the franchise because of its "sinful" nature probably can't tell fantasy from reality.

SirHenryLeeChaChing

Sorry folks, I guess I should mention that I was raised Catholic (until confirmation which I only did to keep my grandparents happy) and Bond movies or what was in them never caused a conflict or kept anyone from watching them. If you are secure in your faith, then you should be able to watch Bond or anything else and be able to put it all in it's proper perspective.

P.S- Sex is fun! I highly recommend it and assure you that you won't be going to a "dark and hot" place.

00Beast

doubleoego said:

thelordflasheart said:

TheWizardOfIce said:

00Beast said:
In regards to the sexual scenes, I simply press the "next" button on the DVD remote and move on. Hey, that's what it's there for anyway.

So that's the mistake I've been making all these years - hitting next just as Bond gets into bed with a girl. If only I'd known the Bond films were packed with sex I wouldn't have had to waste so much time hunting down Evas jubblies in The Dreamers and such like.

This is interesting to me - so you know that the character wants to have pre-marital sex, you know that he *engages* in pre-marital sex, but as long as you don't see it happening then it's okay? I would think the fact that you're watching a character who does that would be the problem, not that you just don't watch him do it.

Again, if you're taught that pre-marital sex is wrong (apologies if you're not) then why watch the films that not only include a lot of it but show it to be cool and fun? I do mean that as a respectful question, I understand that it's fiction and a wish fulfillment fantasy but doesn't it undermine what you're taught in church?

The thing is, what one understands to be right and wrong and then choosing to act on either of the 2 are different things.
James Bond isn't real but in this fictional entertainment where he's the protagonist, regardless of what he's doing and how he's doing it, doesn't automatically re-calibrate my own knowledge or understanding of what's right or wrong. Jame's Bond is a cool character and he has qualities that the nature of many people desire and admire. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging or watching it imo. The problem only starts if I decide to pick up a gun and start shooting people. At the end of the day it's what people choose to act on.....and James Bond? Have you read the bible?? The bible, particularly in the old testament has merciless and brutal acts going on in there and I'm just talking about the good guys. Watching James Bond is the least of anyone's problems.

@TheWizardofIce: Seriously man, does everything I say have to follow with a rude re-buttal from you? The thread called for sharing about your faith, so I did. Sorry if my lifestyle doesn't match yours.

@thelordflasheart: I do respect your question, yes, and I would wonder the same thing if I was on your end. See, the thing is, I watch the other parts of the Bond movies, but skip over those. With those out of the way, it's like there's none in it at all. I do not condone what is implied or showed in the movies, no. However, I avoid it and skip past it because, yes, as you said, in church it is frowned upon, so I put it out of my mind by not watching it.

@doubleoego: Exactly, I know that these things are wrong, so I will not act on them. The fact that it is out there and I know about it cannot be helped, in fact, that just makes it all the more evident what problems are caused by engaging in activities as such, and would further drive me from it.

echo

Bond is basically an assassin by profession. Hello, Ten Commandments? Bond without killing and sex is, well, Remington Steele.

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

echo said:
Bond is basically an assassin by profession. Hello, Ten Commandments? Bond without killing and sex is, well, Remington Steele.

And he covets sooooooo many goods from his "neighbors".

TheWizardOfIce

00Beast said:

@TheWizardofIce: Seriously man, does everything I say have to follow with a rude re-buttal from you? The thread called for sharing about your faith, so I did. Sorry if my lifestyle doesn't match yours.

Nothing personal against you sir you can believe whatever you choose to. But whilst I unfortunately live in a society that orders me to 'respect' people's preposterous beliefs I do at least live in a society where I can say what I think about them so respect the fact that my lifestyle doesn't match yours either.

Just be thankful that for 2000 years your beliefs have not been challenged and you have got away (quite literally a lot of the time) with murder. Just look at the people who believed the earth was flat? Eminent and respected scientists in their day and where are they now? Anyone who came out with such drivel would be laughed at.

The people I feel sorry for are the Jedis. At the UK census in 2001 more people wrote Jedi than Sikh and they achieved the requisite percentage to be recognised as a religion. So what did the UK government do? Just changed the form in 2011. Instead of a box to write your religion there were just tickboxes for all the established religions and one box saying 'other' for anyone else. Constitutional problem gone along with the Jedis right to be recognised.

Anyway this debate is digressing from the point of the thread. As an atheist and a hedonist Bond fits in just fine with my lifestyle so I don't have any moral decisions to make over worrying about burning in hell if I enjoy Rog pushing Sandor off the roof or George shagging 3 birds in 10 minutes.

Vodka, caviar, Rolexes, Aston Martins, champagne, gambling and lashings of sex and violence - what's not to like? Honestly if heaven is bereft of all of these things why would anyone want to go?

As Algernon puts in so succinctly 'Good to see you Mr Bond. Now youre on this I hope we're going to see some gratuitous sex and violence'. Amen to that brethren.

4EverBonded

Well, it seems that some people try to answer the question posed by this thread and also share something of their faith and get a lot of ... let's say strong backlash negativity - thrown in their face. Why? It is unnecessary and petty and makes you sound mean spirited.

I am a Christian and I have no problem with the Bond films or novels. I have been a Bond fan since my teens. Bond is a fun fantasy. Jackdagger put it pretty well. I also liked the Wiley Coyote comment from Licensetoforum. I know fantasy from reality and I rather like my Bond as just that: pure fun escapism.

I probably won't click on this thread again, as I see it will continue to degenerate into bad mouthing other people's points of view and/or religion.

CommanderRoss

SirHenryLeeChaChing said:

P.S- Sex is fun! I highly recommend it and assure you that you won't be going to a "dark and hot" place.

Erm, in my experience....when guys go and have sex with girls....they go.....well.... you might, no, should have worded that...differently ;)

4EverBonded said:
Well, it seems that some people try to answer the question posed by this thread and also share something of their faith and get a lot of ... let's say strong backlash negativity - thrown in their face. Why? It is unnecessary and petty and makes you sound mean spirited.

I am a Christian and I have no problem with the Bond films or novels. I have been a Bond fan since my teens. Bond is a fun fantasy. Jackdagger put it pretty well. I also liked the Wiley Coyote comment from Licensetoforum. I know fantasy from reality and I rather like my Bond as just that: pure fun escapism.

I probably won't click on this thread again, as I see it will continue to degenerate into bad mouthing other people's points of view and/or religion.

To be honest, I think you're claiming too much here. Why wouldn't atheists be allowed to say that they think all religion is short-sited and hypocritical? It's the religious who take it personal, whereas atheists have had to deal with such attitudes towards them for years, ney, centuries. And it has cost many of them their lives.

Not that I'm advocating any hard discussion here, but I do think many religious people turn into rather easily offended people as soon as the subject is touched. I haven't seen any personal attacks, only geniously curious questions about hypocracy.

Duly note though, that whenever religion comes to these boards this kind of debate is likely to happen, becouse of said points.

SirHenryLeeChaChing

@ Commander Ross- you got me there, how right you are! :D

thelordflasheart

4EverBonded said:

I am a Christian and I have no problem with the Bond films or novels. I have been a Bond fan since my teens. Bond is a fun fantasy. Jackdagger put it pretty well. I also liked the Wiley Coyote comment from Licensetoforum. I know fantasy from reality and I rather like my Bond as just that: pure fun escapism.

It's a shame that @4EverBonded has left the discussion because this is exactly what I'm trying to understand. You say that Bond is a fun fantasy, fun escapism. But why would a staunch Christian think that? How is pre-marital sex, violence, and revenge a fun fantasy when those are all things that you're taught are wrong and should not do yourself?

I'm not saying that someone who is Christian - or any other religion - is being wrong or hypocritical by liking Bond. I'm just trying to understand how they can be in church or praying and say "Yes, pre-marital sex is wrong and sinful!" and then enjoy watching a character for whom it is a raison d'etre...wouldn't Bond be exactly the kind of character that you would avoid? I just can't wrap my head around how a character who lives his (fictional) life in almost the opposite way that someone would think that he's supposed to becomes a fantasy figure...that implies that someone would like to live that lifestyle themselves (or implicitly condones it).

I apologize if I'm not expressing myself well or phrasing the question in a confusing way...

TheWizardOfIce

CommanderRoss said:

To be honest, I think you're claiming too much here. Why wouldn't atheists be allowed to say that they think all religion is short-sited and hypocritical? It's the religious who take it personal, whereas atheists have had to deal with such attitudes towards them for years, ney, centuries. And it has cost many of them their lives.

Not that I'm advocating any hard discussion here, but I do think many religious people turn into rather easily offended people as soon as the subject is touched. I haven't seen any personal attacks, only geniously curious questions about hypocracy.

Duly note though, that whenever religion comes to these boards this kind of debate is likely to happen, becouse of said points.

Very well said Commander.

thelordflasheart said:

4EverBonded said:

I am a Christian and I have no problem with the Bond films or novels. I have been a Bond fan since my teens. Bond is a fun fantasy. Jackdagger put it pretty well. I also liked the Wiley Coyote comment from Licensetoforum. I know fantasy from reality and I rather like my Bond as just that: pure fun escapism.

It's a shame that @4EverBonded has left the discussion because this is exactly what I'm trying to understand. You say that Bond is a fun fantasy, fun escapism. But why would a staunch Christian think that? How is pre-marital sex, violence, and revenge a fun fantasy when those are all things that you're taught are wrong and should not do yourself?

I'm not saying that someone who is Christian - or any other religion - is being wrong or hypocritical by liking Bond. I'm just trying to understand how they can be in church or praying and say "Yes, pre-marital sex is wrong and sinful!" and then enjoy watching a character for whom it is a raison d'etre...wouldn't Bond be exactly the kind of character that you would avoid? I just can't wrap my head around how a character who lives his (fictional) life in almost the opposite way that someone would think that he's supposed to becomes a fantasy figure...that implies that someone would like to live that lifestyle themselves (or implicitly condones it).

I apologize if I'm not expressing myself well or phrasing the question in a confusing way...

Lordflasheart hits the nail on the head. 4everBonded states in the quote above that 'Bond is a fun fantasy'. I agree with that statement but I fail to see how he can reconcile the dichotomy between thinking something is fun yet it also goes against his entire ethos and beliefs.

As an atheist my creed forces me to operate from a position of logic and I don't have the luxury of being able to pick and choose which parts of the bible suit my lifestyle.
I would be impressed if any religious person can come on here and defend charges of hypocracy as from my knowledge of the bible and religious doctrine (and this is from an ex Catholic altar boy in case you think I don't know what I am talking about) I fail to see how all the enjoyable things about Bond - the sex, the violence, the fine living - is compatible with the teachings of Christ.

SirHenryLeeChaChing

4Ever is a lady by the way :D

TheWizardOfIce

SirHenryLeeChaChing said:
4Ever is a lady by the way :D

My apolgies Madam (over mistaking you for a chap but certainly not for any derogatory comments about religion).

00Beast

TheWizardOfIce said:

00Beast said:

@TheWizardofIce: Seriously man, does everything I say have to follow with a rude re-buttal from you? The thread called for sharing about your faith, so I did. Sorry if my lifestyle doesn't match yours.

Nothing personal against you sir you can believe whatever you choose to. But whilst I unfortunately live in a society that orders me to 'respect' people's preposterous beliefs I do at least live in a society where I can say what I think about them so respect the fact that my lifestyle doesn't match yours either.

Just be thankful that for 2000 years your beliefs have not been challenged and you have got away (quite literally a lot of the time) with murder. Just look at the people who believed the earth was flat? Eminent and respected scientists in their day and where are they now? Anyone who came out with such drivel would be laughed at.

The people I feel sorry for are the Jedis. At the UK census in 2001 more people wrote Jedi than Sikh and they achieved the requisite percentage to be recognised as a religion. So what did the UK government do? Just changed the form in 2011. Instead of a box to write your religion there were just tickboxes for all the established religions and one box saying 'other' for anyone else. Constitutional problem gone along with the Jedis right to be recognised.

Anyway this debate is digressing from the point of the thread. As an atheist and a hedonist Bond fits in just fine with my lifestyle so I don't have any moral decisions to make over worrying about burning in hell if I enjoy Rog pushing Sandor off the roof or George shagging 3 birds in 10 minutes.

Vodka, caviar, Rolexes, Aston Martins, champagne, gambling and lashings of sex and violence - what's not to like? Honestly if heaven is bereft of all of these things why would anyone want to go?

As Algernon puts in so succinctly 'Good to see you Mr Bond. Now youre on this I hope we're going to see some gratuitous sex and violence'. Amen to that brethren.

Well now, from what we know according to the book of Revelation regarding John's visions of heaven, and what Jesus taught in the four gospels, heaven isn't meant to be just some place where everything that makes you happy is there waiting for you. That's not the point of wanting to go to heaven, just to get what you want in abundance. It's really about just being there with all the believers and with God, and having never-ending joy and peace. Many of those things you listed wouldn't be there because they cause unhappiness more than half the time, and according to Scripture, heaven is absent of all grief or unhappiness.

SirHenryLeeChaChing

@ Wizard- I rather like the "Islamic martyr" theory of shagging 1000 virgins or so. I think George would appreciate it too :D

thelivingroyale

SirHenryLeeChaChing said:
@ Wizard- I rather like the "Islamic martyr" theory of shagging 1000 virgins or so. I think George would appreciate it too :D

Might not be what you think mate ;)

Anyway, my religion is pretty simple: Bruce Lee is Gods son, he was sent down to Earth to kick arse and eventaully died, so someday he could return, form a team with Timothy Dalton and launch a 2 man war against Justin Bieber and his evil.

Seriously now though, I guess I'm agnostic. I think there could be a God, but equally there could be giant Aliens or a talking dog or something, I don't know, but I'll find out when I die.

More on topic, my Grandad in Jamaica is a big christian and he's a big Bond fan, and a fan of lots of other stuff I thought he would be against like violent action films, I actually asked him about it one day and he said that it was fantasy, that it wasn't real, so why should it bother him? He was a bit pissed off when I joined the army though.

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