Come on, guys! TND isn't all THAT bad.

TheBondFan

Tomorrow Never Dies discussion. Positive and Negative comments are appreciated.
TND is my favorite film in the series. I do not really know why, it just is. Probably the mix of gadgets and a good Bond along with a nice story. TMWTGG is a close second.

echo

It's definitely bottom five for me. It checks all the formula boxes but doesn't really inspire on any level. It's the perfect example of Bond on autopilot.

thelivingroyale

I like TND, it's part of what to me is the golden age of Bond (87-99). It's around 10-15 on my rankings because I hate Carver (villian, not girl), but it's still a slick, action packed Bond film. Not terrible, just not great. Brosnans 3rd best for me.

CraigMooreOHMSS

The Hamburg scenes are Brosnan's finest half hour as Bond. Overall, its not as good as GE or TWINE but I think its a good solid entry that gets the job done with a reasonable amount of style and fun. It's around the middle for me.

actonsteve

Bottom five for me. So many bad casting and directorial choices (ie Bond running around with a machine gun)

In the spirit of the thread, however, I will concede

KD Langs 'Surrender' and the Dr Kaufman scene are two of the highlights of the Brosnan era. They work well.

BAIN123

Dies for me is kind of enjoyable but it could have been MUCH better.

The second half of the film is pretty much non-stop action (albeit some of it is entertaing) and the plot takes a back seat.

Reading up on it certainly gives an insight into how troubled the production was (last minute re-writes, the scenes with Paris cut, arguments with Spottiswode).

Apparently even its star knew the film "wasn't up to speed".

Zekidk

The best Brosnan Bond-movie, by far, IMHO. Great action, wonderful locations, a fantastic soundtrack, great henchmen - it's just a fun movie to watch.

actonsteve said:
Bottom five for me. So many bad casting and directorial choices (ie Bond running around with a machine gun)

Bond with a machine-gun is a bad choice? You'll probably end up disappointed by SF then.

Alan007

I enjoy it, but I prefer TWINE

actonsteve

Zekidk said:
The best Brosnan Bond-movie, by far, IMHO. Great action, wonderful locations, a fantastic soundtrack, great henchmen - it's just a fun movie to watch.

actonsteve said:
Bottom five for me. So many bad casting and directorial choices (ie Bond running around with a machine gun)

Bond with a machine-gun is a bad choice? You'll probably end up disappointed by SF then.

Bond used a machine gun sparingly ie OHMSS, Spy. The last ten minutes of TND he was tearing around like Rambo while Wai Lin was pretending the be Jackie Chan.

He always used his Walther PPK, fists or wits to get out of trouble. Not an Uzi...

doubleoego

TND isn't bad but there's nothing wholly special about it either. Pryce's Carver usually gets a bad rap amongst Bond fans buy I actually liked him as a villain. Stamper was great too but I felt he was underused. Hatcher was fine, there was nothing bad about her performance and if there was the blame lies square with the writers. Brosnan was fine for the most part. Again nothing wholly special about his performance but stand out scenes for me include, Bond at Carver's warehouse, the killing of Dr Kaufman, Bond waiting in his hotel drinking vodka, gun at the ready. Michelle Yeoh was ok but I prefer her other work ( I'm a massive fan if world cinema).

BAIN123

actonsteve said:

Zekidk said:
The best Brosnan Bond-movie, by far, IMHO. Great action, wonderful locations, a fantastic soundtrack, great henchmen - it's just a fun movie to watch.

actonsteve said:
Bottom five for me. So many bad casting and directorial choices (ie Bond running around with a machine gun)

Bond with a machine-gun is a bad choice? You'll probably end up disappointed by SF then.

Bond used a machine gun sparingly ie OHMSS, Spy. The last ten minutes of TND he was tearing around like Rambo while Wai Lin was pretending the be Jackie Chan.

He always used his Walther PPK, fists or wits to get out of trouble. Not an Uzi...

Ill agree that they did go into overkill with the machine guns there but in fairness Bond does use his wits not long before - twice.

1. When he stabs the guard and uses his body to distract Stamper outside the ship.

2. When he triggers the grenade booby trap he set up (grenade in jar).

myworldisenough

TND is ok, some good scenes but it is Bond by numbers too often and the plot is a little absurd.

SharkBait

I watched the Brozza films recently, and I have to say TND is a better Bond movie than Goldeneye.

myworldisenough

SharkBait said:
I watched the Brozza films recently, and I have to say TND is a better Bond movie than Goldeneye.

Can't say I would agree with that, however would interested in why you think that? for me Goldeneye has a much more plausable story with more believable characters.

SharkBait

I just prefer that particular over the top movie to Goldeneye. TND is more fun and is tailored to Brozza, whereas Goldeneye feels dated and really suits Dalton better than Brosnan. There are parts of Goldeneye that I still enjoy, but over the years it has lost most of it's magic to me.

St_George

TND is indeed not that bad; the thing with it is that it's just an average Bond film, but there's nothing necessarily wrong with that - so are FYEO, TWINE, TLD (although Daltonites'll never see that) and on a bad day QOS.

There's wonderful moments, though, in practically every Bond film and TND has its fair share. But a top, top 007 flick it is not...

Creasy47

TND has always been enjoyable for me, and I've never seen too big a problem with it. Granted, it does get a little too action-y towards the end, with a Rambo-like James Bond. But, I can't say much for Michelle Yeoh, as she has always been that kung-fu type; what can you expect?

licensetoforum

TND is a middle of the pack Bond film for me. Elliot Carver just doesn't work for me, Stamper is quite boring, and the ending isn't anything spectacular. Someone mentioned this on another thread, but having a previous Bond girl as Paris would have helped with the emotional story line.

Baltimore_007

Somewhere in archives, there must be an existing thread that caters for such a thing i.e. 'a Tomorrow Never Dies appreciation' etc or some random thoughts etc for this release in question, it has to be out there somewhere

In any event, this 1997 second of Brosnan's tenure as James Bond 007 is, as stated so many times before, a genuine disappointment. I usually switch off when Bond leaves for South East Asia, as there's hardly nothing much worth watching after this point. Johnathan Pryce, an actor of caliber, is, as with Christopher Walken 12 years before him, wasted here as the main focus of the James Bond nemesis, apart from a few snide remarks and borderline impressive quips, the character really isn't nasty enough or doesn't even present much of a challenge, it was a wasted opportunity to do something I do feel in retrospect. Add to that, Teri Hatcher was not needed at all, one of the most instantly forgettable characters of the entire series, The Kaufmann character provided some unintentional humor but could of been utilized more efficiently, and the Gotz Otto character of Stamper is clearly yet another tired incarnation of the original Donald Grant villain of 1963, duplicated so many times after, and here was no exception

The best parts (yet again) for me was the opening pre credits sequence at the Russian Arms fair and the Sheryl Crow theme tune, and one or two bits and pieces when Bond was in Hamburg, but for the most part, this release in one of the most instantly forgettable 007 films in recent memory. They did redeem themselves, and Brosnan with it, the next time around for The World Is Not Enough, but this was a largely, dull and mundane 'adventure', and it's sometimes even easy to forget this is even a part of the official series of the James Bond releases

Creasy47

@Baltimore_007, I searched last night, but all I found was a topic that was someone's thoughts on the film, and it was closed and moved to the 'Last Bond Movie you Watched?' thread.

Stamper and Kaufman were pretty good villains for me, but as a main villain, Carver just doesn't cut it for me, either. He was very insane and narcissistic, but I need a little bit of physical force behind my main Bond bad guy.

Even Greene in QoS: I was worried because Amalric is a smaller, quieter man, but when he goes insane with that axe in the finale, it was good enough for me.

Kerim

Three Pros:

Parking Garage Chase
Judi Dench and Geoffrey Palmer reunion
Solid PTS

Five Cons:

Teri Hatcher
More of a generic action flic and less of a Bond flic
Teri Hatcher
Cringeworthy Lines (I'm looking at you Samantha Bond)
Oh, and Teri Hatcher

Creasy47

You always were a cunning linguist, @Kerim.

thelivingroyale

actonsteve said:

Zekidk said:
The best Brosnan Bond-movie, by far, IMHO. Great action, wonderful locations, a fantastic soundtrack, great henchmen - it's just a fun movie to watch.

actonsteve said:
Bottom five for me. So many bad casting and directorial choices (ie Bond running around with a machine gun)

Bond with a machine-gun is a bad choice? You'll probably end up disappointed by SF then.

Bond used a machine gun sparingly ie OHMSS, Spy. The last ten minutes of TND he was tearing around like Rambo while Wai Lin was pretending the be Jackie Chan.

He always used his Walther PPK, fists or wits to get out of trouble. Not an Uzi...

He stopped using the ppk for a while until QOS. And I don't see why people complain so much about the TND finale, he's used a machine gun just as much before. I don't think you've seen Rambo.

Also, Wai Lin pretending to be Jackie Chan??? Michelle Yeoh has done lots of martial arts films and since she's playing a spy who was in alot of fight scenes, why not have her doing just that, martial arts. What about the kung fu in TWMTGG? It's like people try to find any excuse to say Brosnan and his films were bad.

SirHenryLeeChaChing

I agree with the sentiment that TND isn't all that bad. I just prefer GoldenEye just a little bit more. Here's my review of the film-

15. Tomorrow Never Dies (1997)- Poor Pierce. You'd think that after the GoldenEye PTS they'd come up with better for him, right? Sorry. I'm still trying to figure out how a terrorist is trying to garrot Bond, gets ejected, and doesn't take Bond's head with him. Did they ever show how he got loose? Not good. After that, I generally like the premise of TND. Sure, the whole "villain pits countries against each other" thing has been done by the above two films, but the stealth boat is a different, and even better, more realistic twist on the concept. As far as Brosnan goes, it's my favorite performance of his in the role and he seems more comfortable, his scene where he executes Dr. Kaufmann (awesomely played by the now late Vincent Schiavelli) is very Bondian and shows some growth. He also has another good cast around him that I enjoyed, in particular Michelle Yeoh as Wai Lin. This girl gets a little undeserved abuse around here- if you're going to position a female spy as an equal alongside Bond (see Amasova and Jinx as not what to do), then she better be a lot more believeable and Yeoh is a legit ass kicker who gives her character real credibility. Teri Hatcher does OK with what little screen time she is given. As for lead villain Elliot Carver, I also enjoy Jonathan Pryce's portrayal but in general these villains don't hold up to those of GoldenEye. I also really like the soundtrack for the most part, it's my favorite of Arnold's to date and of course "Surrender" rates with the best Bond songs. What bothers me regarding the film are pretty much those issued mentioned before. The cheesy one liners that Brosnan and Samantha Bond have to say, even Judi Dench gets in on them and all of it lacks the class the movies are known for. My other issue regards over reliance on action and explosions, although the ending scene between Bond and Stamper and Bond's subsequent rescue of Wai Lin saves the finale for me.

BAIN123

Kerim said:
Three Pros:

Five Cons:

Cringeworthy Lines (I'm looking at you Samantha Bond)

If you're referring to the "cunning linguist" line that's probably the best quote in the film - always makes me smirk. You can see SB is having a field day with it and I'm with her all the way.

If you want cringe-worthy lines from Moneypenny look at Caroline Bliss from TLD. Even my parents thought the Barry Manilow stuff was dreadful,

Baltimore_007

I much prefered the talk with Moneypenny in TWINE, when Bond brings her a gift and she says 'I know exactly where to put that' and throws it in the trash etc

'ooh moneypenny, the story of our relationship, close but no cigar' etc, that was much more entertaining or got a reaction, far better Bond movie too..

licensetoforum

in Haphazardstuff's review he brought up a good idea. Since Carver was so driven to be the gretaest media mogul, wouldn't of it had been a better ending if he wasn't killed but rather imprisoned and therefore forced to see his name ruined in the same media he once ruled? For me, that would have defintely improved the film.

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

licensetoforum said:
in Haphazardstuff's review he brought up a good idea. Since Carver was so driven to be the gretaest media mogul, wouldn't of it had been a better ending if he wasn't killed but rather imprisoned and therefore forced to see his name ruined in the same media he once ruled? For me, that would have defintely improved the film.

Haphazard should rewrite some of the Brosnan era. He has brilliant ideas.

Creasy47

licensetoforum said:
in Haphazardstuff's review he brought up a good idea. Since Carver was so driven to be the gretaest media mogul, wouldn't of it had been a better ending if he wasn't killed but rather imprisoned and therefore forced to see his name ruined in the same media he once ruled? For me, that would have defintely improved the film.

Now THAT would have been an excellent ending. Carver met such a grizzly, huge demise for someone who wouldn't have needed to take much damage to die.

0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

Besides, death was too quick, while if he was left alive Carver would truly be punished.

forgotmyusername

CraigMooreOHMSS said:
The Hamburg scenes are Brosnan's finest half hour as Bond. Overall, its not as good as GE or TWINE but I think its a good solid entry that gets the job done with a reasonable amount of style and fun. It's around the middle for me.

You are so spot on - when we walks away from his fight at the printers - he is so Bond - I defy anyone here to be honest and wish they were Bond for those 5-10 seconds of Bond being the coolest thing to walk on the planet.

It is the best PB bit of Bond ever....

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