Another Lost Bond Film?

JamesBond

Have you ever heard that there was a film called James Bond, Secret Agent? As I read, it was going to be original story that was going to be written by Ian Fleming and was going to be produced by Kevin McClory. But, later,it was dropped off, scheduled for 1959 release.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=y8p-qpJjPU4C&lpg=PP1&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false

OHMSS69

Fleming worked on that screenplay with McClory for a proposed film but he was unable to secure financing so the project went nowhere.
Fleming later used that manuscript as the basis for his 1961 novel, Thunderball.
When the book was published, McClory filed a lawsuit against Fleming.
Rights to Thunderball were assigned to McClory thus he received credit as producer on the film when it came out in 1965.

Agent007391

And then the b-tard made Never Say Never Again in 83.

shadowonthesun

What's wrong with that? The courts decided that SPECTRE was McClory's intellectual property. He had ever right to make NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN.

For me what's wrong is that he should had the rights to the Thunderball story, not to the James Bond character or any other previous creation of Fleming.

shadowonthesun

But McClory helped create the entire story, He didn't just show up and say "this is SPECTRE and this is what they do" - he worked closely with Ian Fleming on the whole script, including the use of Bond within it. The courts recognised that he had a valid claim to the story and its contents - but only in the context of the story. McClory could only ever remake THUNDERBALL over and over again.

Agent007391

Okay, but since EON had the rights to use SPECTRE, they should have been allowed to keep them. McClory should have stuck with EON, become a partner.

thelivingroyale

don't EON have the rights back now???

Getafix

McClory was trying to get Thunderball remade AGAIN when he died.

Agent007391

thelivingroyale said:
don't EON have the rights back now???

I think they do, but what I meant was that McClory should have stuck with EON so that he could make up a story and have the real Bond experts in cinema comb over his story, fix it up, and make a superb movie. Instead, he was left to his own devices and the result was horrible.

Samuel001

thelivingroyale said:
don't EON have the rights back now???

Yes, through court hearings EON now own all the rights involving Bond.

shadowonthesun

Agent007391 said:
Okay, but since EON had the rights to use SPECTRE, they should have been allowed to keep them. McClory should have stuck with EON, become a partner.

But EON didn't create SPECTRE. McClory did. The courts recognised that SPECTRE was his creation, and so awarded him the intellectual property rights to the organisation and recognised his claim to having created THUNDERBALL. That's why SPECTRE did not appear in THE SPY WHO LOVED ME as was originally planned, and why the villain in the pre-title sequence of FOR YOUR EYES ONLY is officially recognised as "wheelchair villain" rather than Blofeld. The courts could not force McClory to work with EON if he did not want to, which he clearly did not. Doing so would effectively be denying McClory the right to use his creation despite having just given him that right.

You obviously think McClory should not have been given the rights to THUNDERBALL and SPECTRE simply because he created a rival Bond film. Unfortunately, the world does not work that way. McClory created SPECTRE and had a significant enough input into the THUNDERBALL script that a court of law recognised his claim to them. They can't simply say "Well, Mr. McClory, you were right. You created SPECTRE and you have a claim to THUNDERBALL. But there can only be one James Bond franchise, so we will not recognise your claims".

Getafix

Warhead 2000 with Dalton was another 'lost' McClory film. It would have been the NSNA of the Brossa era.

Agent007391

shadowonthesun said:

Agent007391 said:
Okay, but since EON had the rights to use SPECTRE, they should have been allowed to keep them. McClory should have stuck with EON, become a partner.

But EON didn't create SPECTRE. McClory did.

I never said created, I said "rights to use".

shadowonthesun

But McClory was the one who created SPECTRE. And if he could prove it, then his creation of SPECTRE trumped EON's rights to use it. The "we should have the rights because we were already using them" argument is not valid - especially since EON had stopped adapting Fleming novels in which Blofeld and SPECTRE appeared. They essentially wanted to use McClory's creations in original works, which they had no right to do without McClory's permission, which they did not have.

OHMSS69

So much waggling over who owns what rights. I once read somewhere that McClory owned Blofeld, the white cat, SPECTRE name...the original concept had pitted Bond against members of the Sicilian Mafia who hijacked the bombs. McClory owns this storyline and EON can't use storylines around the Mafia. When McClory first wanted to do his remake of Thunderball he wanted to call it "James Bond of the Secret Service" but EON got upset because it sounded too much like OHMSS. In a earlier draft of TSWLM the evil magnate's name was Stavros but McClory felt it sounded too much like Ernst Stavro Blofeld so the name Stromberg was used.
Crazy eh?

shadowonthesun

I can't see how there would be anything preventing them from using the mafia in a story, since the original storyline was never used. And also because EON have used the mafia before - GOLDENEYE featured the Janus crime syndicate.

if Kevin McClory created SPECTRE? than why did Spectre first appear in Dr No and FRWL?

DarthDimi

002 said:
if Kevin McClory created SPECTRE? than why did Spectre first appear in Dr No and FRWL?

TB was published in '61.

OHMSS69

shadowonthesun said:
I can't see how there would be anything preventing them from using the mafia in a story, since the original storyline was never used. And also because EON have used the mafia before - GOLDENEYE featured the Janus crime syndicate.

Janus is not the Sicilian Mafia. Nothing wrong with using a crime syndicate, just can't use the Mafia...
for the record, there are other crime syndicates besides the Sicilian Mafia--Hello?

thelivingroyale

I'd like to see bond take on the ITALIAN mafia, led by robert dienro

thelivingroyale

Agent007391 said:

thelivingroyale said:
don't EON have the rights back now???

I think they do, but what I meant was that McClory should have stuck with EON so that he could make up a story and have the real Bond experts in cinema comb over his story, fix it up, and make a superb movie. Instead, he was left to his own devices and the result was horrible.

yeah I know what you meant, I was just wondering if they had the rights back (fingers crossed for blofeld in skyfall :) ). But I actually liked NSNA, I think its just as good as the original thunderball

PrinceKamalKhan

Getafix said:
Warhead 2000 with Dalton was another 'lost' McClory film. It would have been the NSNA of the Brossa era.

http://007art.free.fr/posters/st_warhead_1.jpg

http://007art.free.fr/posters/st_warhead_2.jpg

http://007art.free.fr/posters/st_warhead_3.jpg

http://007art.free.fr/posters/st_warhead_4.jpg

http://007art.free.fr/posters/st_warhead_5.jpg

MajorDSmythe

PrinceKamalKhan said:

Getafix said:
Warhead 2000 with Dalton was another 'lost' McClory film. It would have been the NSNA of the Brossa era.

http://007art.free.fr/posters/st_warhead_1.jpg

http://007art.free.fr/posters/st_warhead_2.jpg

http://007art.free.fr/posters/st_warhead_3.jpg

http://007art.free.fr/posters/st_warhead_4.jpg

http://007art.free.fr/posters/st_warhead_5.jpg

Dalton never would have gone for that, given what a rogue Bond film stands for. But damn, Dalton as Bond with Stone and Belluci as the girls. If I can just figure out how I can get my hands on a flux capacitor... :-?

shadowonthesun

Didn't McClory say he wanted Pierce Brosnan in the role at one point? Brosnan was approached for THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS, but then "Remington Steele" got renewed and he was forced out. I seem to recall something about McClory wanting to make WARHEAD (possibly known as WARHEAD 2000AD) with Pierce Brosnan as James Bond because he knew EON wanted Brosnan to play Bond and so he figured that casting EON's favoured son would be something of a coup for him.

TheWizardOfIce

A couple of observations:

1. Seeing as EON had used SPECTRE and Blofeld in DN and FRWL why was Mcclory not entitled to sue for unauthorised use of his intellectual property. Neither Blofeld or SPECTRE appeared anywhere in the novels of DN and FRWL so it strikes me that EON (presumably without his permission) lifted his creations for use in their films. I presume there must be a reason why he didnt sue as old Kevin was never shy about going to court so why didnt he? Perhaps he waived his rights to sue for DN and FRWL as part of the TB deal? But then that doesnt explain why he didnt stop them using SPECTRE and Blofeld in DAF. OHMSS he could do nothing about as its part of the novel but seeing as he stopped EON in the original script for TSWLM why did he not do the same for DAF as Blofeld and SPECTRE also have no connection to the book.

2. Fair enough in law Mcclory is entitled to SPECTRE, Blofeld and the TB story but surely Fleming has rights to the characters of Bond, M, Leiter etc. It seems entirely unjust to me that Mcclory can make a fortune of the success of Flemings character by remaking as many James Bond films as he likes. NSNA would never have got funding had it just been about some crime syndicate stealing some nukes and the hero had had to be named John Bland or something. Its only the fact that its part of the Bond legend (which Kevin had no part in creating in either print or on film) that made people want to go and see his story.
And how far does a remake have to deviate from the source material before it becomes just a Bond film and not a remake of TB? There are large differences between NSNA and the Thunderball story that should not be allowed as for me hes just making a Bond film - which he does not have the right to do.

Well at least the parasitic tosser is dead now and EON finally have all the rights. Dont feel too sorry for Kevin - he made millions out of Bond when his input was on a par with someone like Bruce Fierstein or P&W. Shame he was so greedy he spunked most of it in legal costs. And before anyone comes on and says you shouldnt speak ill of the dead it was this case that sent Fleming into an early grave so I would happily erase Mcclory and TB (not my favourite by a long chalk anyway) from the Bond universe for all the hassle it ultimately caused.

oo7

I'm really not sure what rights over Bond verses the mafia could be made as thats the whole DAF book...
I think Mclory recieved some moneys for the use of spectre but due to the increasing amounts they just killed blofeild off. I'm unsure if his family were keen to push for maintaining these rights as some people sudgested the character had come back into Danjaq holdings for the Goldeneye game.
Flemings willingness to keep mclory out of court and pay him off for the inconvenience affrims the fact that he and mclory had indeed co authored the story, Much the way Harlen Ellison had his name put on the credits to terminator as cameron admitted that the ideas had been stolen from twilight zone episodes.
"Well at least the parasitic tosser is dead now and EON finally have all the rights. Dont feel too sorry for Kevin - he made millions out of Bond when his input was on a par with someone like Bruce Fierstein or P&W. Shame he was so greedy he spunked most of it in legal costs. And before anyone comes on and says you shouldnt speak ill of the dead it was this case that sent Fleming into an early grave so I would happily erase Mcclory and TB (not my favourite by a long chalk anyway) from the Bond universe for all the hassle it ultimately caused."
The writers EON EMPLOY are being paid to produce Bond stories. Fleming and Mclory had come up with the other story before the film series started. by this they were trying to take his idea without paying him so he was in the right. the rights i would imagine still legally lay with mcclorry for those characters, the outcome of the court case that claimed he had sat on them for too long without using them seems a tad EON sided rather than actually favouring unbiased opinion.
I would actually imagine that EON have become so far removed from the source matterial that someone could argue they are no longer making Flemings stuff and wrestle the rights to that from them. Legally.

TheWizardOfIce

oo7 said:
The writers EON EMPLOY are being paid to produce Bond stories. Fleming and Mclory had come up with the other story before the film series started.

I simply meant that his creative input is only the same as writers who over the years have tossed a few ideas into the ring. Did Joanna Harwood, Paul Dehn or Michael France end up making literally millions of dollars from their small contribution to Bond?
I wasnt casting any aspertions on the legality of Kevins position, just that it seems wholly unfair that he should wind up making as much as he did from a character who he made absolutely no contribution towards establishing either in print or film.

Imagine if one of the writers for Shrek or Pirates Of the Caribbean wasnt credited for a certain plotline or character and the court decided they could make their own rival film on the strength of it?

oo7 said:

the outcome of the court case that claimed he had sat on them for too long without using them seems a tad EON sided rather than actually favouring unbiased opinion.

Agree here. I dont see in law what difference in makes if you sit on your rights or make a film a year with them.

oo7 said:

I would actually imagine that EON have become so far removed from the source matterial that someone could argue they are no longer making Flemings stuff and wrestle the rights to that from them. Legally.

I would argue that there is a fundamental difference here in that EON own the rights to Flemings work and also to the James Bond character so they can do pretty much what they want.

Kevin only owned the rights to TB so he can make loads of spinoff Domino, Lippe and Largo films if he wants but he should be severely restricted in his rights to use the characters of James Bond, M, Moneypenny, Leiter and the 007 number in a film as he had no part in creating them.

I cant remember all the ins an outs of the case as its a long time since I read up on it (really need to read the Battle for Bond) but didnt the court decide that it was pretty much 50/50 who created SPECTRE and Blofeld etc so found that Fleming could own the literary rights and Kevin the film rights to TB that is?

I think this is the case otherwise Kev wouldve had a case against Fleming over Blofeld and SPECTRES use in TSWLM, OHMSS and YOLT novels and that never materialised. I dont think Kev would have hesitated in taking Glidrose to court after Flemings death if he thought he could get his grubby mitts on some more cash off Flemings back.

At the end of the day Kev has struck lucky in court after coming up with a few Bond storylines (which we've all done in fan fiction) and then for the rest of his life slurped up lashings of gravy that was only tasty thanks to the labours of others.

Same as marvelous Monty Norman (thats perhaps a bit harsh on Monty. Hes not quite the same level of prick that Kev was). How much would pitiful ditty Mr Biswas have made him were it not for John Barry rearranging it into something decent instead of some feeble Indian restaurant background music?

Getafix

MajorDSmythe said:

PrinceKamalKhan said:

Getafix said:
Warhead 2000 with Dalton was another 'lost' McClory film. It would have been the NSNA of the Brossa era.

http://007art.free.fr/posters/st_warhead_1.jpg

http://007art.free.fr/posters/st_warhead_2.jpg

http://007art.free.fr/posters/st_warhead_3.jpg

http://007art.free.fr/posters/st_warhead_4.jpg

http://007art.free.fr/posters/st_warhead_5.jpg

Dalton never would have gone for that, given what a rogue Bond film stands for. But damn, Dalton as Bond with Stone and Belluci as the girls. If I can just figure out how I can get my hands on a flux capacitor... :-?

I was always annoyed by McClory because (as I understand it) he was the main reason we didn't get a third Dalton film. However, when I heard rumours he wanted to cast Dalts in Warhead 2000 (or whatever they were calling ), I softened slightly.

Dalts should never, ever have walked away from the part. He was still looking great at the time GE came out and could have still pulled it off until quite recently. Such a shame.

oo7

I think the Legal dispute and death of Cubby casued the delay alot less than the on going rewrites. when i think about it the lack of clarity in where the film should have went on the part of EON left the franchise on its rear and dalton walking. Its crazy though because I believe they are still dissecting stories from the original goldeneye. the train sequence in Skyfall.
What Mclory was being paid while they used Spectre is unknown, as he was PAID DIRECTLY BY FLEMING for damages about the publication on Thunderball. This being outside of a court because Fleming must have suspected he would not actually win.
As for EON owning the character, this is debatable as they have actually painted sucha character that they could keep it to some extent. a lot of people I think would be happer with a concistant bond playing out through a tv serial akin to the BBC's Walander or Sherlock.

boldfinger

Agent007391 said:
what I meant was that McClory should have stuck with EON so that he could make up a story and have the real Bond experts in cinema comb over his story, fix it up, and make a superb movie. Instead, he was left to his own devices and the result was horrible.

It´s probably impossible to say wether McClory could have pulled it off decently because McClory had to appear in court every day to get approval for the script parts about to get shot, thus he simply didn´t have the time to produce the film.
IMO that´s the real reason why it was stupid of McClory to take on the project. Wether Eon were right or not to sabotage McClory, he knew from the start that he was battling a monster. Such is not a reasonable basis to produce a big budget film.

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