biggest mistake of the brosnan era: getting rid of janus after goldeneye
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 7,914
    I was watching goldeneye, yesterday, and I thought it would've been cool if EON had used janus as the spectre of the brosnan era, and 006 as blofeld. In this fantasy, I would've changed TND so carver was a secret member of janus (with alec only used in a FRWL blofeld type way, and the rest stays the same), kept TWINE as a solo adventure, and in DAD used janus. Here's my plot for DAD using janus: bond kills moon (he stays dead this time), and is sent to north korean prison, thanks to double agent miranda frost. The film then plays out like it did, except gustav graves isn't moon, its 006 using a mask and living under a false identity, but in this he actually works out a deal with moons father. Bond of course finds this out. So the "for england james" line would've been at the end of DAD, when bond kills 006 and ends the brosnan era with the story it started with. Of course there's about a million other things I'd change in DAD as well but im not gonna go into all that now.
  • shadowonthesunshadowonthesun
    Posts: 1,894
    Janus was run by Alec Trevalyan, with Ouromov as his man inside the government and Xenia as his enforcer. Once those three were taken out, the Janus crime syndicate ceased to exist.
  • Agent007391Agent007391
    Posts: 3,577
    The real biggest mistake of the Brosnan era: Die Another Day.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 4,806
    The biggest mistake of the Brosnan era: making a completely CG action sequence

    You realise it's only going to be a matter of time before someone says the inevitable, this being Mi6 and all.
  • X3MSonicXX3MSonicX
    Posts: 2,561
    BAIN123 said:

    The biggest mistake of the Brosnan era: making an entirely CG action sequence



    Well, I don't got this... You mean the part Bond uses the Parachute to fall from the mountain in DAD?
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 4,806
    X3MSonicX said:

    BAIN123 said:

    The biggest mistake of the Brosnan era: making an entirely CG action sequence



    Well, I don't got this... You mean the part Bond uses the Parachute to fall from the mountain in DAD?


    Yes! I suppose you could include the freefall scene in GE but comparitively that looks wonderful.

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007
    Posts: 4,831
    shadowonthesun said:

    Janus was run by Alec Trevalyan, with Ouromov as his man inside the government and Xenia as his enforcer. Once those three were taken out, the Janus crime syndicate ceased to exist.



    Christ, show some imagination for once.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7
    Posts: 13,916
    DaltonCraig007 said:

    shadowonthesun said:

    Janus was run by Alec Trevalyan, with Ouromov as his man inside the government and Xenia as his enforcer. Once those three were taken out, the Janus crime syndicate ceased to exist.



    Christ, show some imagination for once.


    Now I know why you like Moore. You enjoy unintelligible plots!
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007
    Posts: 4,831
    0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 said:

    Now I know why you like Moore. You enjoy unintelligible plots!



    GE could easily have been rewritten so Alec wouldn't have been the head of the organization... it would be the same movie basicly, with the Bond/Alec showdown, only there would be a set up for a bigger organization behind Alec... add a few lines of dialogues here and there referring to the organization, maybe have a mysterious character a-la Mr White in the film...
  • X3MSonicXX3MSonicX
    Posts: 2,561
    0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 said:

    DaltonCraig007 said:

    shadowonthesun said:

    Janus was run by Alec Trevalyan, with Ouromov as his man inside the government and Xenia as his enforcer. Once those three were taken out, the Janus crime syndicate ceased to exist.



    Christ, show some imagination for once.


    Now I know why you like Moore. You enjoy unintelligible plots!


    Lmao.

    BAIN123 said:

    X3MSonicX said:

    BAIN123 said:

    The biggest mistake of the Brosnan era: making an entirely CG action sequence



    Well, I don't got this... You mean the part Bond uses the Parachute to fall from the mountain in DAD?


    Yes! I suppose you could include the freefall scene in GE but comparitively that looks wonderful.



    Oh well, that one too? I never thought that could be CG, I really thought it was an double... lol

    Anyway, @thelivingroyale made a good point. The 4 Bond movies he made could be just like the Craig era, with an interligated storyline, and being a great history. Maybe this way the Brosnan era could be better than it actually was.

    -offtopic: Damn, i'm proud to be Born in his era..
  • shadowonthesunshadowonthesun
    Posts: 1,894
    DaltonCraig007 said:

    0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 said:

    Now I know why you like Moore. You enjoy unintelligible plots!


    GE could easily have been rewritten so Alec wouldn't have been the head of the organization... it would be the same movie basicly, with the Bond/Alec showdown, only there would be a set up for a bigger organization behind Alec... add a few lines of dialogues here and there referring to the organization, maybe have a mysterious character a-la Mr White in the film...

    All that would have done was make Trevalyan a weaker villain. His entire movtie for attacking London was based on his refusal to serve some master or another. The only way it could have been done feasibly whilst protecting the integrity of the character would have been to have Valentin Zukovsky take control of the remnants of Janus once Trevalyan was dead.

    But GOLDENEYE works fine as it is.
  • Risico007Risico007
    Posts: 1,545
    no I agree with the original poster Janus as a multi film organization would of worked and made Carver a far more interesting/believable villain.

    Oh well they learned their lesson with Craig though I'm happy for that.
  • DoubleOhhSevenDoubleOhhSeven
    Posts: 1,003
    I agree it would've given a sense of continuity to the Brosnan films and given him a larger threat to deal with but it would've ruined Trevelyn's character, as an above poster mentioned. His whole motive was that of revenge and working as a lacky to some greater villan like a Blofeld type would've seemed like an unlikely choice for him. The nature of his character meant he had to be the lone and final force behind Janus.
  • QBranchQBranch
    Posts: 2,441
    IMO The Bond series doesn't need a new/recurring organization alongside every new Bond actor. It would get monotonous, and fans would more than likely lose anticipation for the next SPECTRE wannabe. GoldenEye's ending is fine as it is.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 7,914
    shadowonthesun said:

    DaltonCraig007 said:

    0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 said:

    Now I know why you like Moore. You enjoy unintelligible plots!


    GE could easily have been rewritten so Alec wouldn't have been the head of the organization... it would be the same movie basicly, with the Bond/Alec showdown, only there would be a set up for a bigger organization behind Alec... add a few lines of dialogues here and there referring to the organization, maybe have a mysterious character a-la Mr White in the film...

    All that would have done was make Trevalyan a weaker villain. His entire movtie for attacking London was based on his refusal to serve some master or another. The only way it could have been done feasibly whilst protecting the integrity of the character would have been to have Valentin Zukovsky take control of the remnants of Janus once Trevalyan was dead.

    But GOLDENEYE works fine as it is.


    it does work fne as it is but I think TND and DAD could've worked really well with janus. And if you read the opening post, Trevalyan wouldn't have been taken out in goldeneye, he would've been re-used in a blofeld-FRWL type way in TND, and as the main villian in DAD. I think sean bean could've improved DAD alot, he would've made a more threatening villian than graves.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 7,914
    QBranch said:

    IMO The Bond series doesn't need a new/recurring organization alongside every new Bond actor. It would get monotonous, and fans would more than likely lose anticipation for the next SPECTRE wannabe. GoldenEye's ending is fine as it is.



    Not every bond does have a recurring organisation, moore and dalton don't have recurring organisations (unless you count the KGB). But I think brosnans films could've benifited from a dark, mysterious organisation like janus.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 7,914
    DoubleOhhSeven said:

    I agree it would've given a sense of continuity to the Brosnan films and given him a larger threat to deal with but it would've ruined Trevelyn's character, as an above poster mentioned. His whole motive was that of revenge and working as a lacky to some greater villan like a Blofeld type would've seemed like an unlikely choice for him. The nature of his character meant he had to be the lone and final force behind Janus.



    He wouldn't be. For the last time, he would've survived at the end of goldeneye, then in TND carver would've been a janus member with Trevelyn being used in a blofeld-FRWL type way, then in DAD he would've been the main villian, with the whole "for england james" scene taking place at the end of the plane sequence, ending the brosnan era with the story it started with and janus never returning. Trevelyn still would've been head of janus.
  • Agent007391Agent007391
    Posts: 3,577
    X3MSonicX said:

    The 4 Bond movies he made could be just like the Craig era, with an interligated storyline, and being a great history.



    Don't let DC007 hear you say that. He hates anything making real sense and having continuity for some weird reason.
  • dchantrydchantry
    Posts: 277
    X3MSonicX said:

    BAIN123 said:

    The biggest mistake of the Brosnan era: making an entirely CG action sequence



    Well, I don't got this... You mean the part Bond uses the Parachute to fall from the mountain in DAD?


    Did we really need to ask :)
    Absolutely the worst piece of CGI I've ever seen apart from the scorpion/rock thing in Mummy returns.

  • Agent007391Agent007391
    Posts: 3,577
    dchantry said:

    X3MSonicX said:

    BAIN123 said:

    The biggest mistake of the Brosnan era: making an entirely CG action sequence



    Well, I don't got this... You mean the part Bond uses the Parachute to fall from the mountain in DAD?


    Did we really need to ask :)
    Absolutely the worst piece of CGI I've ever seen apart from the scorpion/rock thing in Mummy returns.



    I take it you haven't seen The Scorpion King 2, then?
  • dchantrydchantry
    Posts: 277
    Agent007391 said:

    dchantry said:

    X3MSonicX said:

    BAIN123 said:

    The biggest mistake of the Brosnan era: making an entirely CG action sequence



    Well, I don't got this... You mean the part Bond uses the Parachute to fall from the mountain in DAD?


    Did we really need to ask :)
    Absolutely the worst piece of CGI I've ever seen apart from the scorpion/rock thing in Mummy returns.



    I take it you haven't seen The Scorpion King 2, then?

    I never even saw Scorpion King 1 :)

  • Agent007391Agent007391
    Posts: 3,577
    1 was good. A CGI scorpion from 2 makes the CGI Scorpion King from The Mummy Returns looks like it was real.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007
    Posts: 4,831
    Agent007391 said:

    X3MSonicX said:

    The 4 Bond movies he made could be just like the Craig era, with an interligated storyline, and being a great history.



    Don't let DC007 hear you say that. He hates anything making real sense and having continuity for some weird reason.


    There was no continuity between outings 1962-2002. You didn't need to watch the previous 10 outings to appreciate MR. Continuity is totally not needed in the franchise. And plot is also not important - humour, characters and atmosphere are what's important in Bond films. The films can have the most basic and simplistic plot, as long as there's a great dose of humour with instantly quotable one-liners , the characters are colourful and memorable and there's an interesting atmosphere, the movies will have 10/10 from me. Plot doesn't matter at all IMO. I don't watch Bond films for their plot, which i don't care about, but for their quotable one-liners, the memorable gags and characters, and the atmosphere.

    All in all that is why I love TMWTGG and DAF, because they have tons of quotable lines, instant classic secondary characters, and they are 2 of the most Flemingesque films.
  • Agent007391Agent007391
    Posts: 3,577
    So, we can go watch 2 hours of dribble and somehow enjoy the film? For someone who says I have no attention span, I'm surprised you hate plot.

    And no one from DAF was memorable. Maybe Shady Tree, but that's because he had such a stupid name I'll never forget it. The one thing I liked from DAF was Felix, because he was an A-hole in that movie for no reason whatsoever.

    Damn good one-liners does not a good film make, otherwise everyone would love Lethal Weapon (which I do, yet have found very few else who do).
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007
    Posts: 4,831
    Agent007391 said:

    So, we can go watch 2 hours of dribble and somehow enjoy the film? For someone who says I have no attention span, I'm surprised you hate plot.



    I think that plot is not important in Bond films.. I didn't say I hate plot in every other non-Bond films... I just think that for Bond films, humour and character are much more important than plot. I just don't care about plot in 007 movies, doesn't stop me from enjoying other movies with good plot.
  • Agent007391Agent007391
    Posts: 3,577
    Here, I'll give you a job: go write a Bond script that truly relies on nothing but one-liners.

    Seeing as I've given Bond writing a try (I write Bond fanfics for Fanfiction.net, name there: Jorus C'baoth), I can tell you that plot is as necessary as everything else.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007
    Posts: 4,831
    Agent007391 said:

    Here, I'll give you a job: go write a Bond script that truly relies on nothing but one-liners.

    Seeing as I've given Bond writing a try (I write Bond fanfics for Fanfiction.net, name there: Jorus C'baoth), I can tell you that plot is as necessary as everything else.



    I strongly disagree. Plot is is not important at all in Bond films. Humour, characters and atmosphere are the only 3 things that matters, IMO, in Bond films. DAF and TMWTGG have basic and simplistic plots, yet IMO they are the 2 most Flemingesque outings. Next to them, CR and QOS are almost total strangers to Fleming's world.


    Agent007391 said:

    And no one from DAF was memorable. Maybe Shady Tree, but that's because he had such a stupid name I'll never forget it. The one thing I liked from DAF was Felix, because he was an A-hole in that movie for no reason whatsoever.




    Well I totally disagree. DAF had the most memorable and colourful bunch of characters. DAF is probably the most Flemingesque outing, due to this amazing bunch of secondary characters, to the one-liners and humour, and the atmosphere.
  • Agent007391Agent007391
    Posts: 3,577
    I'm still trying to find where the Fleming is in these films. When I read Fleming, I don't see what you see, clearly. Fleming relies on explanations and plot, not one-liners and lame characters (maybe with the exception of TSWLM, but even Fleming hated that novel).

    As of right now, the only thing you and I agree on as atmosphere.
  • GetafixGetafix
    Posts: 3,155
    I think Janus was the least of the problems during the Brosnan era. Dreadful scripts, stories, casts, music and production design would top my list.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007
    Posts: 4,831
    Agent007391 said:

    I'm still trying to find where the Fleming is in these films. When I read Fleming, I don't see what you see, clearly. Fleming relies on explanations and plot, not one-liners and lame characters (maybe with the exception of TSWLM, but even Fleming hated that novel).

    As of right now, the only thing you and I agree on as atmosphere.



    This is where we differ. When I watch DAF or TMWTGG, it's like I read a Fleming novel... And IMO when I read the Fleming novels, I picture Moore from TMWTGG, and the DAF atmosphere and humour. IMO the Fleming novels were much more humourous than the Craig films, and are more in line with the '74 Moore and '71 Connery outings.
  • Agent007391Agent007391
    Posts: 3,577
    Getafix said:

    I think Janus was the least of the problems during the Brosnan era. Dreadful scripts, stories, casts, music and production design would top my list.



    Now, I'm gonna go ahead and give the cast credit by trying to take the crap they were given and turn it into something manageable, which they were somewhat able to do in TWINE, but not DAD.
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