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Bond and Guilt

patbpatb
edited October 2015 in Skyfall Posts: 4,599
Sorry if this has been covered and mods feel free to delete/move.
Something Horowitz reminded me of re SF was that Bond did actually fail in his mission to protect M and, as we can see from the death scene, this was not just any mission. He was very emotionally involved. Keeping in mind that the latest movies seek to explore the emotional side of Bond, guilt is an emotion pretty lacking in his character so far (or the showing of it) plus the fact that some form of enquiry would have taken place as it was purely Bond's idea to take M up to Scotland and had no official sanction. Its always useful to have an emotion(s) driving the main character in all movies so I wonder if guilt will play a role in Spectre (no spoilers please) and this fits in with the darker tones as, obviously, guilt is a pretty dark emotion or its possible NOT due to the fact the the writers don't want to draw attention to the fact that Bond failed in Skyfall (the last scene certainly seemed to indicate that we were back to "business as usual")

Comments

  • jobojobo
    edited October 2015 Posts: 7,500
    I have never really understood this "Bond failed in Skyfall notion. MI6 was caught out and exposed as practically helpless against a powerfull enemy and Bond did his best to help. In the end they defeated the enemy, and although they payed a prize for it you can be sure that M would have died much sooner if it wasn't for Bond. There is nothing in Skyfall which suggests that Bond's mission was regarded to be a failure, so I have no idea why they shoule rip on that in SP.

    As for Bond and guilt in general it has been touched upon before. Most notably in Goldfinger. They could possibly have emphasized it more (like its done in the novels) but I understand why they don't, especially when you see the ractions to Bond's supposed failure in Skyfall. The public doesn't seem to accept an imperfect Bond after all...
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    I think Bond gets a bad and unfair rap for "failing" to save M.
    He protected and came to her rescue each and every time before any harm came to her. That all went out the window when the head of MI6, who's vision isn't the best and is useless with a firearm decided it was a great idea to aimlessly fire shots in the dark, when she could have avoided being seen altogether and not initiated the shootout that delivered the wound that would kill her...by some nobody henchman.

    Even upto the point where Silva could have delivered the final blow Bond saved her from it.
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,599
    Silva's target was M (the whole theme was a very personal one) plus causing havoc within her dept. Its clear when he holds a gun to her head, he wants to die and for her to die also. As it turns out, one of his team succeeded in killing her. Bond's aim when escaping to Scotland was to protect her and, ultimately , save her life. Don't get me wrong, I am a massive SF fan (see my prev posts) but you cant really say Bond succeeded? (when you have a bad guy who actually wants to die, surely it weakens the drama a little when he actually does?)
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 7,965
    Even more important, when Bond asks her how she's doing she says it's ok and hides her gunshot wound. There's little Bond could've done as he wasn't aware she was wounded badly. No failure at all if you ask me.
  • patbpatb
    edited October 2015 Posts: 4,599
    But the reason she was shot in the first place was due to her situation which was 100% Bonds call (although, yes, others went along with it)
    Plus "Good God, are you still alive" he was not counting on the help of Kincade, he drove up there with the expectation it would be just him and M?
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    patb wrote: »
    Silva's target was M (the whole theme was a very personal one) plus causing havoc within her dept. Its clear when he holds a gun to her head, he wants to die and for her to die also. As it turns out, one of his team succeeded in killing her. Bond's aim when escaping to Scotland was to protect her and, ultimately , save her life. Don't get me wrong, I am a massive SF fan (see my prev posts) but you cant really say Bond succeeded? (when you have a bad guy who actually wants to die, surely it weakens the drama a little when he actually does?)

    It's obvious Bond didn't succeed because the woman ended up getting herself killed but I think it's shortsighted and lazy to just say Bond failed. You cant protect people who knowingly put themselves in harms way. M's death was avoidable. She might as well have yelled out, "hey, Mr.shooter I'm over here". That being said, Silva failed also. Yes, it was personal and he wanted to be the one to kill her. He reiterated this when he arrived at SF manner. Not only did Silva fail to kill her but M was killed by some faceless goon, sans Silva seeing her die.

  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,599
    But Bond's plan put her in that situation. At the point when it's clear that a mad man (ex agent) is trying to kill M and he has the support of a well trained crew of killers , of all the options available, he takes her to a deserted Scottish house where his expectations were zero help, home made weaponry (gas bottle, old explosives) etc etc. Its not a good plan re risk asessment and it ends up not working. We can all think of better plans that would have made Silva's job harder not easier. Again, SF is in my top three, but it's not perfect and this part is a big issue for me.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Bond's expectations were more than that. He was expecting to come home to a fully kitted out gun room and he knows the land and terrain, which gives him a better advantage than you'd think. Silva would have been cut off from computerised technology which would have and did work to Bond's advantage also and ultimately Bond's plan although highly improvised worked...Until M put herself in danger. Was it the best plan? Debatable. Bond did a better job at SF manor than what took place having all those people, police and security at the westminster hearing in which M would have died. The only reason why she survived that was because Silva hesitated for 3 seemingly long seconds instead of shooting her and when he did finally take the shot, it was Malory who managed to get from where he was sat behind the panel desk and over to M, getting her out the way.
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,599
    Fair points.. I think perhaps the best compromise is that its not a good plan but Bond was under stress and, seeing that others had failed to protect her, places all of the responsibility on himself (he is a trained killer, not personal protection/body guard) rather than delegate the job to a specialist team. His emotions get in the way of making a rational decision in the same way ("You’re sentimental about him") that M was not rational with Bond.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Yeah I can get with that. It was definitely a flawed plan and you're right, he's not a professional bodyguard despite Bond's numerous claims to be able to protect people but I think rational thinking did play a part but it was outweighed by emotions for sure.
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,599
    wow, agreement on forum :) good stuff
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    It happens every now and again :D
  • shamanimalshamanimal
    Posts: 623
    It was her own fault with that stupid torch. What were they thinking?
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,599
    dont start me on the torch but I will leave it be now :-)
  • DariusDarius UK
    Posts: 354
    I think guilt plays a very big part in the latest movies, CR, QoS and SF. Bond feels guilt for the death of Vesper, Solange, Mathis and now M. A lot of the drama in these movies hinges around Bond's ways of dealing with his guilt. Mathis said: "Forgive yourself", and Bond just can't do this because repeatedly he fails to protect those around him.

    The irony here is that M knows this because she is dealing with her own guilt too -- "Take the bloody shot!" She is also dealing with the guilt of sending countless agents to their deaths. After the interview in Mallory's office, she knows that the end is near -- her career is over and she will then be alone without Her Majesty's Security Services to protect her against a threat, so powerful and all knowing, that it can reach deep into MI6 HQ at Vauxhall Cross and destroy her office along with the rooms around it.

    So, M, riddled with guilt, gives Bond back his spurs, even though he has failed all the re-training tests, knowing that he would likely as not go rogue in order to protect her. She knows also that to be close to Bond is like being close to fire -- everyone that gets too close gets burned. In other words, she knows she's going to die, but she'd rather die by Bond's side.

    When Bond whisks her away from London, she shows no surprise, just a show of resigned acceptance of inevitability. Above all, she knows that James Bond is no bodyguard (just the reverse), but he is the man most likely to avenge her death by eliminating Silva.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,727
    For a moment I thought it said 'Bond and Gullit' :D now that's a discussion i'd like to see..!
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