Rant on M,Q and Moneypenny

CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
in Bond Movies Posts: 1,003
So I have been doing a James Bond marathon recently. Every night I watch a Bond film. I started with Dr.No and will work my way up to Skyfall.. While watching the old films I started to realize the many problems I have with Daniel Craig's films!

First of all. M and Q. I really think M and Q should be about twenty years older than Craig. To me it just isn't convincing at all.
Don't get me wrong I think Ben is a great actor but he looks more like an assistant to me. Ralph is actually a great choice but he looks like he could be a field agent! To me they should have casted older actors.

Now Moneypenny.. At first I had a major issue with her being black.
I am not a racist but "MP" has always been white. It's like making Bond black. It's just something you don't do. The people in Bond aren't code names they are actual people just being replaced by actors. Am I the only one that feels like they have no chemistry at all??
In the old films I always felt like Bond and Moneypenny had a past romance and something happened but you could always tell there was chemistry.

Does anyone else have these problems and concerns?
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Comments

  • 0101000101010001 Classified
    Posts: 25
    I disagree, but I do understand your point.

    I think they rather see M, Q and Moneypenny as 'titles' that can be transferred. It is logical to change dynamics in a while (and I am sorry, but I find 'has always been white' quite a racist stand, even if you don't mean it like that, because every person looks different, and we don't go 'that one has always been blonde' either).

    M IS transferred this time, very clearly even. Because he isn't there as the new 'M', he is there as the new head of MI6 - it's Bond who labels him M, but it's very clearly a title passing on.

    I think, with plots on cybersecurity, a younger Q is the logical choice. It's not like it has been, but nowadays, those who excel in science and hacking are younger than the general public - just look at silicon valley.

    That's just what I think about it, I actually liked the change. Not Moneypenny's role, by the way.
  • I absolutely agree with the changes made to Q for Skyfall. Trying to replace Desmond Llewelyn would've been a totally fruitless effort so their best course of action was to create an entirely new character from scratch to distance themselves from the classic Q. Personally I'd rather have a totally different Q who'd stand on his own merits than a poor substitute for Llewelyn the way Cleese was.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    edited December 2014 Posts: 1,727
    I absolutely agree with the changes made to Q for Skyfall. Trying to replace Desmond Llewelyn would've been a totally fruitless effort so their best course of action was to create an entirely new character from scratch to distance themselves from the classic Q. Personally I'd rather have a totally different Q who'd stand on his own merits than a poor substitute for Llewelyn the way Cleese was.

    Yes, Desmond Llewelyn was far more iconic & irreplaceable as a character than (with all respect to her, she was a gorgeous gal' in her day) Lois Maxwell, bless them both.

    Q needed to be completely reinvented - Moneypenny far less so.
  • CASINOROYALECASINOROYALE Somewhere hot
    Posts: 1,003
    It not racist at all? Hair color has nothing to do with it?
    That's like casting a black Harry potter. It's just not right.
    I am not a racist, I was one of the top basketball players in my state and played with tons of African Americans. I have nothing against them. I just think they missed a perfect opportunity to have a great money penny. You can tell by the lines that the chemistry is supposed to be there but just isn't.. I understand not wanting to replace Desmond, but still someone like Stephen Fry or John Hurt could've done it and I would have been happy.
  • Posts: 4,619
    Bond will always need a boss and there will always be a place for M. On the other hand, Q and Moneypenny are simply dead weight at this point. I LOVE what they did with those characters in Skyfall and maybe they should appear in Bond films every once in a while, but definitely not in every single Bond movie from now on.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Casting MP with a non white actress isn't the same as casting Bond with a non white actor for me. Bond preferably should always be a white male. Every other MI6 member is fair game. As for Q, I think casting him as some elderly man is somewhat out of touch with the way the tech world landscape is today. The most innovative and technologically sound minds are the 20 to 40 something year olds and to be honest, I found Llewelyn to be a character I didn't really care for. He was just a character that became a staple, a traditional part of the furniture that wasn't terribly important at all. The insane love he gets from fans is staggering but somewhat understandable as many Bond fans aren't too keen on change even if it is for the better in some cases. I like Wishaw ' s interpretation as Q and I like how he and Craig play off each other...for now at least anyway.
  • 0101000101010001 Classified
    Posts: 25
    It not racist at all? Hair color has nothing to do with it?
    That's like casting a black Harry potter. It's just not right.
    I am not a racist, I was one of the top basketball players in my state and played with tons of African Americans. I have nothing against them. I just think they missed a perfect opportunity to have a great money penny. You can tell by the lines that the chemistry is supposed to be there but just isn't.. I understand not wanting to replace Desmond, but still someone like Stephen Fry or John Hurt could've done it and I would have been happy.

    Chemistry has nothing to do with her being black, right? Just, racism aside (I am not saying that YOU have a problem with them, not at all) but indeed I agree that casting a black Bond would be a different thing - Moneypenny changed through the years, old to young, dark haired to light haired, etc. Not that I am against a black Bond, but it's not his character.

    The way they eventually did Moneypenny was far less pleasant to me, but nothing to do with the actress, just her semi-chemistry role.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I am not a misogynist, but a female M? Pffft, pleeease!
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited December 2014 Posts: 7,518
    I really think Fiennes captures a bit of the Bernard Lee spark, and he does it quite well! Especially in the scene in "new" MI6, with the "Why not stay dead?" and "Don't cock it up"... not just in what he says but in his physicality as well.
    ^^^ "I am not a misogynist, but..." is a surefire way to tell something misogynistic is coming up ;) Wasn't there a female head of MI6 in real life?
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    There was indeed.
  • brinkeguthriebrinkeguthrie Piz Gloria
    Posts: 1,400
    Stella Rimington was the head of MI5, not 6.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    Stood corrected. Thanks @=bg=
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Just for future reference, never use the phrase "I'm not racist/sexist/homophobic BUT". It does absolutely nothing to convince people who are inclined to think that you are those things otherwise. Just let your arguments stand on their own.

    I kind of agree with the younger Q. Desmond was way too iconic try try and put another old man in a frumpled suit in the role to replace him. Better to go in an entirely different direction.

    I don't see why it matters what race Moneypenny (or anyone really) is. For some characters their race is an important part of their identity. Charlie Chan, Shaft, etc. To me Moneypenny's essential qualities have always been British, secretary, attractive enough for Bond to want to flirt with her, quick-witted, loyal, but not overtly sexual. Whether she has blue or brown eyes, black, brown or blonde hair or dark or light skin seem like relatively minor points.

    I don't think people who insist on never changing characters races are necessarily BNP members, but do sound like the father in Fiddler on the Roof shouting "TRADITION!!"
  • edited December 2014 Posts: 4,622
    Sark wrote: »
    Just for future reference, never use the phrase "I'm not racist/sexist/homophobic BUT". It does absolutely nothing to convince people who are inclined to think that you are those things otherwise. Just let your arguments stand on their own.

    I kind of agree with the younger Q. Desmond was way too iconic try try and put another old man in a frumpled suit in the role to replace him. Better to go in an entirely different direction.

    I don't see why it matters what race Moneypenny (or anyone really) is. For some characters their race is an important part of their identity. Charlie Chan, Shaft, etc. To me Moneypenny's essential qualities have always been British, secretary, attractive enough for Bond to want to flirt with her, quick-witted, loyal, but not overtly sexual. Whether she has blue or brown eyes, black, brown or blonde hair or dark or light skin seem like relatively minor points.

    I don't think people who insist on never changing characters races are necessarily BNP members, but do sound like the father in Fiddler on the Roof shouting "TRADITION!!"
    Good post @sark. I orginally was a little miffed that MP's look was suddenly changed, however I have since adapted.
    We were all weaned on Lois Maxwell, who was very close to what Fleming wrote, but there was so little MP in the Fleming novels anyway, that it really wasn't a clearly defined character, at least not appearance wise.
    Lois Maxwell ultimately, I think did more to define the character than Fleming did.
    However Harris as MP, is very English, maybe a tad too attractive, but she doesn't have to vamp her look up. Maxwell as a young actress was quite good-looking too, but she didn't work the look as MP, the way a Bond-girl slinking around the casino might.
    By Samantha Bond in the Broz films, we were already moving away from Maxwell. Maybe the look was similar, but the personality was distinctly cheekier.
    Harris is arguably closer to Maxwell's demeanor than Sammy Bond ever was.

    Leiter ideally should look like Rick Van Nutter in TB. Fleming wrote him blonde and Texan, but that horse left the barn with Cec Linder in GF.
    Eon clearly did not want a Jack Lord alpha-male type, challenging Connery's screen supremacy.
    Even when the traditional Felix look was restored with Van Nutter, there was no doubt, as to who was the boss of who.

    re Bond and MP romantic history. Fleming never mentioned that and its never manifested in the films either. Even SF, stopped short of giving them any actual history that we can latch onto. The shaving scene was cut at Bond hitting on her, but being rebuffed. That it seems will be their history.
    Samanthan Weinberg, in MP Diaires gave Bond and MP a history, but that's her unique take.

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 17,730
    ^ There was the dreadful Virtual Reality scene in DAD between Miss Moneypenny and "James Bond" of course.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Sark wrote: »
    To me Moneypenny's essential qualities have always been British
    What was the accent Lois Maxwell had? I can't seem to place it- it almost sounded American...

  • edited December 2014 Posts: 4,622
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    ^ There was the dreadful Virtual Reality scene in DAD between Miss Moneypenny and "James Bond" of course.
    When I first saw that in cinema, I knew it was going to be pulled away. They weren't going to suddenly get hot and heavy, after 20 films.
    I wasn't sure how, but I knew it was going to taken off the table somehow, and I was right.
    Mind you, I saw the movie in a full cinema, and the scene was making some uneasy, as they didn't have the same confidence as I did, that the scene wasn't going anywhere.
    So all told, I think it was an ill-advised scene to begin with.
    They should have pre-screened that scene with an audience, along with the para-surfing cgi.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    The offcial line on Q was that they couldnt go down the old man in his workshop making his gadget route. They considered what a Q would be now and quite right he would be a computer genius. He would be young, quirky and geeky. That makes sense. What I miss is the conversations from Connery and Bernard Lee when Bond would be asked "what do you know about....? Bond would act the smart ass and share his knowledge M would then cut him down to size. They need that to come back between Mallory and Bond.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Sark wrote: »
    To me Moneypenny's essential qualities have always been British
    What was the accent Lois Maxwell had? I can't seem to place it- it almost sounded American...

    Shes Canadian.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    Saltzman stopped Maxell from being deported to face a military court in Canada. She was MIA from her national service in the army. Just a wee fact for yous.
  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    The offcial line on Q was that they couldnt go down the old man in his workshop making his gadget route. They considered what a Q would be now and quite right he would be a computer genius. He would be young, quirky and geeky. That makes sense. What I miss is the conversations from Connery and Bernard Lee when Bond would be asked "what do you know about....? Bond would act the smart ass and share his knowledge M would then cut him down to size. They need that to come back between Mallory and Bond.

    Col. Smithers: here have some more of this rather disappointing brandy.

    M: what's wrong with it?

    Bond: I'd say it's a 30-year-old fine, indifferently blended, sir... with an overdose of bon bois.

    M: Col. Smithers is giving the lecture 007!

    Cracks me up every time.
  • Posts: 725
    Thought making Q a tech nerd was a logical update to the character. Given the Sony hack, it now appears to be an even smarter idea. Just don't waste Bond's screen time by putting Q in the field and giving him a bigger role. Same with M. Fiennes is a good actor and I have no problem with him as M. But again, don't waste Bond's screen time and distort M's position as head of MI6 by putting Fiennes in the field. I thought Craig sometimes came off as a supporting player in SF as other cast members soaked up too much screen time.

    I do have a very big problem with Harris's MP. I agree with CR that she had no chemistry with Craig at all, and the SF script really tried to force it. Craig would have chemistry with a block of wood, so I blame Harris for it. I think making MP black was a good update idea, but Harris is misscast. There are hundreds of black actresses that are beautiful, sexy and can act and one of them should have been cast. Harris can certainly act, but she is not beautiful and not sexy. I fear they will waste way too much screen time on her again which will not serve Spectre and Craig's Bond well. I also dislike her constantly pushing Idris Elba for Bond in interviews. Bad form from a current cast member. Elba has been endlessly pushing himself for Bond. He will never get it. Not because he is Black, but because he is too old for the next reboot. But he'll whine about it anyway.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    Posts: 2,138
    smitty wrote: »
    Thought making Q a tech nerd was a logical update to the character. Given the Sony hack, it now appears to be an even smarter idea. Just don't waste Bond's screen time by putting Q in the field and giving him a bigger role. Same with M. Fiennes is a good actor and I have no problem with him as M. But again, don't waste Bond's screen time and distort M's position as head of MI6 by putting Fiennes in the field. I thought Craig sometimes came off as a supporting player in SF as other cast members soaked up too much screen time.

    I do have a very big problem with Harris's MP. I agree with CR that she had no chemistry with Craig at all, and the SF script really tried to force it. Craig would have chemistry with a block of wood, so I blame Harris for it. I think making MP black was a good update idea, but Harris is misscast. There are hundreds of black actresses that are beautiful, sexy and can act and one of them should have been cast. Harris can certainly act, but she is not beautiful and not sexy. I fear they will waste way too much screen time on her again which will not serve Spectre and Craig's Bond well. I also dislike her constantly pushing Idris Elba for Bond in interviews. Bad form from a current cast member. Elba has been endlessly pushing himself for Bond. He will never get it. Not because he is Black, but because he is too old for the next reboot. But he'll whine about it anyway.

    In fairness so did Helen McCrory pushing her husband Damien Lewis for Bond bit cheeky after having worked with Dan and knows he is staying on in the role for some time yet.
  • Posts: 533
    I do have a very big problem with Harris's MP. I agree with CR that she had no chemistry with Craig at all, and the SF script really tried to force it. Craig would have chemistry with a block of wood, so I blame Harris for it. I think making MP black was a good update idea, but Harris is misscast.


    She should have been one of "the Bond leading ladies", not Moneypenny.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited December 2014 Posts: 17,687
    Sark wrote: »
    Just for future reference, never use the phrase "I'm not racist/sexist/homophobic BUT".

    I don't mean to sound like a racist, ageist, sexist, homophobic, misogynist, psychotic, omnipotent misanthrope, but...
  • Posts: 2,887
    What I miss is the conversations from Connery and Bernard Lee when Bond would be asked "what do you know about....? Bond would act the smart ass and share his knowledge M would then cut him down to size. They need that to come back between Mallory and Bond.

    I'm fine with that dying out. I never liked the idea of Bond as a smart-alec know-it-all. It makes him into too much of a smug superman and makes M look dumber than he should be. Bond is a man of above-average but not genius-level intelligence. He shouldn't be too smart.
  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    edited December 2014 Posts: 2,138
    smitty wrote: »
    Thought making Q a tech nerd was a logical update to the character. Given the Sony hack, it now appears to be an even smarter idea. Just don't waste Bond's screen time by putting Q in the field and giving him a bigger role. Same with M. Fiennes is a good actor and I have no problem with him as M. But again, don't waste Bond's screen time and distort M's position as head of MI6 by putting Fiennes in the field. I thought Craig sometimes came off as a supporting player in SF as other cast members soaked up too much screen time.

    I do have a very big problem with Harris's MP. I agree with CR that she had no chemistry with Craig at all, and the SF script really tried to force it. Craig would have chemistry with a block of wood, so I blame Harris for it. I think making MP black was a good update idea, but Harris is misscast. There are hundreds of black actresses that are beautiful, sexy and can act and one of them should have been cast. Harris can certainly act, but she is not beautiful and not sexy. I fear they will waste way too much screen time on her again which will not serve Spectre and Craig's Bond well. I also dislike her constantly pushing Idris Elba for Bond in interviews. Bad form from a current cast member. Elba has been endlessly pushing himself for Bond. He will never get it. Not because he is Black, but because he is too old for the next reboot. But he'll whine about it anyway.

    I struggle with her, total miscasting. I love Skyfall but at the end when she says "Well, my names Eve, Eve Moneypenny" I cringe the way she delivers it with the pause. Why not just say my names Evelyn Moneypenny. I think Mendes wanted us to be like no way shes Moneypenny what a surprise! But it didnt work for me.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,687
    Revelator wrote: »
    I never liked the idea of Bond as a smart-alec know-it-all. It makes him into too much of a smug superman and makes M look dumber than he should be. Bond is a man of above-average but not genius-level intelligence. He shouldn't be too smart.
    Mostly agreed here.

  • SirHilaryBraySirHilaryBray Scotland
    edited December 2014 Posts: 2,138
    Bond:Pity about your liver, sir. An unusually fine Solera. '51 I believe.

    M:There is no year for sherry, 007.

    Bond:I was referring to the original vintage on which the sherry is based, sir. 1851, unmistakable.

    I think these moments are missed.
  • edited December 2014 Posts: 7,500
    I don't want to sound like an asshole... ;) but when I read the statement that "MP has always been white" I couldn't help thinking of this:





    When was ever the skin coulour an important trait of MPs character? And to me there is nothing lacking with their chemistry.
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