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Why Octopussy is the last of the old-fashioned Bondfilms
AceHole
Belgium, via Britain
OP is the 'border' between the old fashioned entries and the ‘modern’ ones, to my mind:
- OP is the last Bondfilm to have a PTS that has nothing to do with the main story.
- OP is the last film to have a title referring to a main character or villain
- OP is the last film where 007 is a ‘guest’ (ie. forcibly) at the villain’s residence
- OP is the last film to feature a ‘field-operation’ Q lab
- OP is the last film to have an exclusively instrumental score (no synthesizers or rock guitar riffs)
- OP is the last film to have a ballad for a title-song (and one that was not about chart success)
- Last but not least... it just feels old fashioned. All it's successors don't.
- OP is the last Bondfilm to have a PTS that has nothing to do with the main story.
- OP is the last film to have a title referring to a main character or villain
- OP is the last film where 007 is a ‘guest’ (ie. forcibly) at the villain’s residence
- OP is the last film to feature a ‘field-operation’ Q lab
- OP is the last film to have an exclusively instrumental score (no synthesizers or rock guitar riffs)
- OP is the last film to have a ballad for a title-song (and one that was not about chart success)
- Last but not least... it just feels old fashioned. All it's successors don't.
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Comments
Right - I will change it to 'captured' only.
And Skyfall (Silva's Island) - technically captured?
With 'guest' I was referring to him being accommodated (room etc) , wined & dined... old-fashioned megalomaniac style.
Have to say I'm far from convinced by your arguments:
A popular misnomer anyway given that only GF, FYEO and OP have a PTS that has nothing to do with the main story (and even GF mentions Bond's flight to Miami in passing) so it can hardly be said that this is a mark of 'old fashioned' entries.
SPECTRE?
I would say the 'James St John Smythe' scenes conform to this, although if you rely on 'forcibly' then perhaps not. But 'forcibly' a guest only really happens in DN, GF and TMWTGG (strangely all the films with a character in the title) doesnt it? The rest of the time Bond is either undercover at the villain's residence or captured. So again, can something that happens so rarely be regarded as the mark of a classic Bond film? Can you count SF as well on this point? Silva does offer him a nice single malt after all?
LTK and TND have Q on location. Although if you mean with Smithers and co then fair enough I suppose.
The AVTAK score is fairly lush instrumental work by Barry but if youre counting the title song then I guess you are right as it is guitar heavy. Although the original Bond theme in DN is as killer a guitar riff as you will ever get so dont really see how a guitar riff can be banned from making something an 'old fashioned' entry.
Are GF and TB really ballads? Power ballads perhaps but I wouldnt class them as ballads in the same sense as All Time High. So in the 60s films, that presumably set your template of 'old fashioned' entries, theres only really YOLT that had a title song that was a traditional ballad. DN, FRWL and OHMSS were instrumentals.
Hmm.
I would contend AVTAK is the last old fashioned because it has the same 'feel' as OP. It is certainly the most old! The average age of the cast is about 55. Take out Tanya Roberts, Grace Jones and Walken and it rises to about 70! Moore, Maxwell, Llewelyn, Brown, Macnee, Gotell, Keen, Willoughby Gray - Christ even the heavies in the warehouse packing scene and the rock salt scene look over 60. Its like the cast of Last Of the Summer Wine doing a Bond film.
"Yeah baby!" MI6 Community debating at it's most hardcore :-bd
Glad you found the time to pick some holes in my 'theory', it's what this board is all about, really... But tbh I was just a bit bored and was larking about with this thread, as you can see my arguments are about as watertight as Barbara Bach's outfit in TSWLM.
Having said that - I do genuinely feel that OP is the last Bond with a classic feel / atmosphere to it...
Haha. Slow day at work mate.
Personally I think theres a case to be made for TLD. Call it the General Gogol/Frederick Gray factor.
Two moments that stand out for me are:
1.) AVTAK. The end credits signal the end of the Moore era. However you feel about Rog (one of the best IMO) his run went for 7 films, 12+ years and left a huge impact on the series, proving life for Bond after Connery was possible. Also this is the first film where the next Bond title is not announced in the end credits.
2.) LTK. Both TLD and LTK are an interesting transition period. The look of these films are noticably older than GE due to the six year gap. The ending of the fish wink and Patti Labelle's tremendous outro song just strike me as the end of an era.
A View to a Kill
- The last Bond movie to be made before each film had to "peel back the layers of the character" to get a deeper look. Dalton started the deeper examination of the character and every actor since has followed suit.
-Obviously it was Moore's last film which meant it was the last time the series maintained believable continuity as far as Bond's age went. Seeing as how Connery and Moore were only a few years apart in age, they could conceivably have played the same character. While Dalton's Bond was the first instance of necessary retconning in the series.
The Living Daylights
-The last John Barry score.
-The last good guy army vs. bad guy army finale.
-The last film in which the Cold War played heavily into the plot.
-The last film to not feature some personal stake/vendetta for Bond.
License to Kill
-The last film produced by "Cubby" Broccoli
-The last Maurice Binder credit sequence.
-The last practical credit sequence (not digital).
-The last traditional gun barrel opening (not digital).
-The last film before the 6 1/2 year gap.
-The last film to be made during the Cold War.
-The last film that cinematically had that old look to it.
-The last film to have been released during the summer (not that that really matters)
-The last Bond film before everything got all P.C.
Die Another Day
-The last film of the original Bond continuity.
-The last film to visit Q's lab.
-The last film to be goofy and over-the-top.
-The last film to follow the Bond blueprint.
Personally I'm on the fence as to whether I consider LTK or DAD to be the end of the "classic" era. While DAD definitely marked the end of an era I'd say the last "old fashioned" Bond movie was LTK. Not just by the way it was made but because the most had changed in between it's gap both internally at EON and the world in general.
In hindsight the Brosnan era feels like a real diversion.
I do get where you're coming from with OP though. It does have a reassuringly old-school feel to it. One of my favourites.
The amount of energy you spend moaning about the Moore era staggers me too. :)
It shouldn't since I'm simply stating the truth.
It's one thing to say that some of the other Moore films are perhaps better than perceived, but to take the bottom of the barrel and justify that seems just silly.
They're lousy pictures, period.
OP is one of the worst-reviewed Bond films ever. So it's a classic like Lawrence of Arabia or Casablanca? C'mon.
OP: Better than French Connection
OP: better than Ben Hur
C'mon, a classic?
And not in a good way.
Never going to bash OP myself. But I'm not quite sure the original post is strictly true.
However...
Not sure the end of the Cold War really has anything to do with the end of an era in the world of Bond.
You could say that DAD is the first Bond film of the post 9/11 era.
There is no continuity in the Bond films other than when the film makers decide to sporadically insert some from time to time.
DAD, the last goofy over the top film. Forgive me, but goofy and James Bond is not a sentence I ever want to see.
Yes, I quite agree.
Indeed.
AVTAK felt like an end of an era, but with Gogol and Gray popping up in TLD, I have to say LTK was the end of the classic timeline, but retconned with Dalton.
Modern Bond - GE; the post Cold War was a major theme, but it looks closer, cinematography wise to LTK, than to TND, which was where the 90's Bond films began in earnest, IMO.
Since LTK, however, one has gotten a personal matters - LTK and Feliex, GE and 006, TND and Paris, TWINE and Elektra, DAD and Bond's betrayal etc.
Personally the last time I felt we were watching a proper, old school Bond, with that "classic feel" to it, was TLD.
Any chance you could use it to spare us any more of doubelohdad's repetitive tedium?
Mind you I suppose everyone is entitled to believe in whatever they choose. I find it admirable that in this era of religious tolerance we allow a guy on here who treats Rotten Tomatoes as gospel (to be fair it's no less risible than the bible or the Koran I suppose).
Indeed the parallels with religious fundamentalism and doubelohdad are very clear because just like religious nutters he also merely regurgitates stuff from his 'bible' rather than having any original thoughts of his own.
Good luck to him I say and the worshippers at the church of the tomato, they're harmless enough aren't they?
:)
I feel the same way. Seeing how easily Dalton segues into Craig the whole Brosnan era feels kind of superfluous.
I second that. Octopussy is pure fun from start to finish. @doubleohdad I'm not sure being all highbrow is very appropriate for a James Bond fan site. Alot of Bond films weren't lauded by critics but we love them anyway. If you only like movies based on how many oscars they have then I'm surprised you like the Bond series at all.
Personally I enjoy the hell out of AVTAK and absolutely adore OP as it played a big part in making me a Bond fan.
The Cold War has plenty to do with James Bond as Bond was conceived as a Cold War spy. There was a reason for discussions after LTK and the wall of the Berlin Wall as to whether James Bond is even relevant anymore.
When I say "original continuity" I meant everything before the reboot. Before CR we were meant to believe we were watching the continual adventures of one man. Unless you're one of those "James Bond is a codename" people but personally that's blasphemy for me.
I'm sorry but I found parts of DAD to be goofy to me. I'll use a different word next time. ;)
LTK showed what was possible, still with some humorous elements.
Brosnan's were mostly a fun mix of all that had come before (mileage CLEARLY varies on this).
To directly address the OP's topic on OP, it was the last OTT production from the original crew, yes. But I agree with @Getafix that TLD/LTK was the biggest turning point.
Still, for ME personally, TWINE/DAD is the biggest change because you have Desmond's big goodbye and the (ridiculously awkward) transition into the post 9-11 world with the following film.
:D
Still, TWINE had some fairly dark moments that get overlooked because of "Christmas".
:))